Security Basics mailing list archives
Re: Value of certifications
From: "Yousef Syed" <yousef.syed () gmail com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:41:48 +0200
James, On the matter of Vendor certs I would definitely have to disagree. I've met plenty of MCSE people that just happened to study hard for the exam and passed it, but haven't the first clue about setting up an enterprise Windows system. For a previous consultancy that I worked at, I was forced to take the Sun Java Certification (despite the fact that I already had 8years Java/J2EE real world experience). It is the the most worthless certification that I've ever come accross and it actually teaches you things that you'll NEVER do in the real world! I'd gone so long in my career without it, in-part, due to the fact that so many "Java-Certified" types that I'd meet, were useless developers. The vendors care just as little about the student's knowledge as anyone else - they are also in it for the money. Anytime they change the OS, you need a new Cert. Anytime a new version of Java comes out, they want a new Cert... KER-CHING! What I like about the CISSP is that you are expected to have atleast 4 years prior experience before you take the exam. It covers ten different security domains. It isn't a technical paper where you memories a bunch or procedures; rather, you really have to know what you are security, why it needs security. It isn't at such a high-level to make it irrelevant, and nor is it at such a low-level as to make it too technically demanding for people that might never have used a firewall before. Are you going to get Fakers picking a CISSP; ofcourse you are (just as is the case with any qualification); but such persons will be weeded out swiftly once they are in the workforce and can't produce. Is it a substitute for experience, no. But it does complement your experience and if all your experience is only in one particular security domain, it shows you that there are other security domains and they all need to be considired together. Yes, I would prefer to have externally audited orgs performing such certifications that aren't profit driven; but outside of Universities, they don't exist - and accademic knowledge and real world knowledge are two very different things. ys On 26/04/07, Simmons, James <jsimmons () eds com> wrote:
Yes, I agree about determining the pecking order, but what is a better way of proving that you know something? Actually going out there and demonstrating that you know it. Or taking some cheaply made test, that no one knows how it was formed, as your validation? I am not saying that certifications do not serve a purpose, but I have found very few that are actually good enough to live up to that purpose. My example differs between vendor certs (CCNA, MCSE, etc.) and general knowledge certs (CISSP, security+, etc.) The vendor certs are by far superior (though expensive for no reason) because who would know the subject matter better then vendor. The general knowledge certs are a joke. What designates these people as experts? Both in the field that the cert is focusing on, and in creating a meaningful cert? In my rant off my link I make reference to the ASE certs for Automotive technicians. ASE was formed by the major automakers of the day to maintain a acceptable skill level. They employed psychologists, professors, and other education experts to research and ensure that their testing methods give an accurate portrayal of the skill level of the individual. Do you honestly think that any of these companies have put that much time and effort into their tests? These are start-up companies that believe they can make some money off of trying to sudo-train individuals to do a complicated job. And companies are trusting these "certified" professionals to protect them and conduct business critical work on their systems. And I am not saying that this is the case for everyone. Some very intelligent, and capable individuals are getting the certs because that is what will attract customers. They are not getting the certs to learn anything new. They are getting them to prove that they know. And at that point I question why these certs have to cost so much? While every other question I see in this forum about certs is "I want to learn about security, what is the cert I should go after?". It is just a messed up system that really needs an overhaul. Regards, Simmons
-- Yousef Syed "To ask a question is to show ignorance; not to ask a question, means you remain ignorant" - Japanese Proverb
Current thread:
- Re: Value of certifications, (continued)
- Re: Value of certifications packet_boy (Apr 23)
- RE: Value of certifications Robert Lupo (Apr 24)
- RE: Value of certifications Chris Smith (Apr 24)
- RE: Value of certifications Robert Lupo (Apr 24)
- Re: RE: Value of certifications lordl3ane (Apr 24)
- Re: Value of certifications Doug Schlachta (Apr 24)
- RE: Value of certifications lalit.gupta (Apr 25)
- RE: Value of certifications Brian Bemis (Apr 25)
- RE: Value of certifications Simmons, James (Apr 25)
- Re: Value of certifications TJ Stamm (Apr 26)
- RE: Value of certifications Simmons, James (Apr 27)
- Re: Value of certifications Yousef Syed (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Simmons, James (Apr 27)
- Re: Value of certifications Patrick (Apr 30)
- RE: Value of certifications Craig Wright (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Simmons, James (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Craig Wright (Apr 30)
- RE: Value of certifications lalit.gupta (Apr 25)
- Re: Value of certifications Yousef Syed (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Adnan Rafik (Apr 30)
- Re: Value of certifications packet_boy (Apr 23)
- RE: Value of certifications andrews (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Simmons, James (Apr 27)
- RE: Value of certifications Ackley, Alex (Apr 30)