RE: Value of certifications

["Ackley, Alex" <aackley () epmgpc com>]

Do some research before spouting more CISSP non-sense please.  Just
because you do not see people on their board does not mean they don't
have them.  The class I took recently was taught by a person who works
directly with ISC2 and told us that they have numerous people employed
whose only purpose is in designing the best test possible.  In the same
was that auto repair tests are designed.

Just because you don't think it's being done does not mean that it's
not.

I used to spout this same crap myself I've been reading from you for the
last few days, but then broke down and got my certs.  I've 20+ years of
experience in computer security and didn't need them.  But they give
employers that idea to hold onto that they like.  Just like a college
degree does much the same thing.  Are you going to argue next that
having a BS in Comp Sci is just as worthless as a Cert?  It does the
same thing for employers and proves just as much as to what the person
knows.

I've worked with just as many idiots who were college grads as cert
holders and just as many who had both.


-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
On Behalf Of Simmons, James
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 3:24 PM
To: andrews () rbacomm com
Cc: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Value of certifications

ISACA does have a standard that is used in many places. So does DISA
(government entity), ISECOM, OWASP, and many others. Of course if you
just blindly follow a standard procedure  then you are not worth your
pay as a professional to begin with. If you are not re-evaluating your
own procedure constantly let alone someone else's, then you are already
behind the power curve. Base procedures are a good way to cover the
basics, and ensure you don't forget something small. That is why they
are considered a set of best practices. There is never a single common
procedure that will fit 100% of the situations. That is what you are
being paid for as a professional. It is a lot like a lawyer. You can
easy use a cookie cutter form for any legal document, but you pay a
lawyer to ensure that your particular situation is covered.

> Are you seriously arguing that most people who get their CISSP didn't
learn anything new >to pass?  Would the same apply to the CISA and CISM
tests from ISACA?

I am not arguing that people do not learn anything new in the process. I
am saying that the purpose of the cert is to prove that you have a
baseline of acceptable knowledge in that field. I am making the point
that if you are taking a cert to learn something new, then you are
confused as to the purpose of a certification. If you are taking the
CISSP to learn about security, then you are providing a great disservice
to your employer. It is a sampling issue, the difference between
creating a test to ensure knowledge, and creating knowledge to pass a
test.  Unless you want to argue that the CISSP test covers all
information that is relevant to computer security, in which case I would
just have to laugh at you, and then silently cry at the turn humanity
has taken. I would hope that not even ISC2 would take that stance.


On a side note, look at the board of directors for ISC2. They are all
computer security people. So granted they have enough people for the
technical experience, but where is the resource for education and
psychology? Only one person (the only professor) has any sort of
background in education and training. So how is a group of people
suppose to make a general certification to determine the knowledge level
for everyone that takes this test?
One teacher is not enough for a valid education system. When was the
last time you had a horrible teacher/ professor? What are the chances
that this guy is such a savant in teaching that he can handle all the
executive level education decision needs of this company by himself? At
least ISACA has three professors on their board of directors.

> While I wish they cost less, since I will be paying for any tests
myself, the are at
> what the market will bear.  If you can make one cheaper that is just
effective, go ahead 
> and do so.  :)

And that is my point. This is a call to arms of sorts. We need a new
system. Who doesn't agree? What points do you have that this system is
the best and doesn't need to be changed drastically?  I am proposing as
an example a system that has been working (ASE). It is far from perfect,
but it is better then our current system. The problem, is that nothing
is going to change until more people wake up and see the flaws in the
current system. Especially with computer security, an industry that was
created with the mindset that you can never really trust what people
say, because we are always looking for man-in-the-middle attacks, social
engineering, and other anomalies that we have to protect against. This
should go out to hiring managers, and the decision makers. Point out the
flaw in the hiring practices. I can not be the only one who is tired of
having to work with someone who is completely unqualified and believes
that they are the best.

Regards,

Simmons

-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
On Behalf Of andrews () rbacomm com
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 10:13 AM
To: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Value of certifications


Quoting "Simmons, James" <jsimmons () eds com>:

> Do you honestly think that any of these companies have put that much 
> time and effort into their tests?

The ISC2 is far from a startup company.  ISACA has also been around a
while.  And their COBIT standard is used many places....

I may be wrong, but I think they have put some thought into their tests.

> They are not getting the certs to learn anything new. They are getting

> them to prove that they know.

Are you seriously arguing that most people who get their CISSP didn't
learn anything new to pass?  Would the same apply to the CISA and CISM
tests from ISACA?

> And at that
> point I question why these certs have to cost so much?

While I wish they cost less, since I will be paying for any tests
myself, the are at what the market will bear.  If you can make one
cheaper that is just effective, go ahead and do so.  :)

Brad