Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd)
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry () piermont com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:08:46 -0500
"Jamie C. Pole" <jpole () jcpa com> writes:
I'm sorry, but I was also FAR too close to one of the 09/11 attacks. While I agree that giving up (supposedly) certain civil liberties is most decidedly not a good thing, we need to remember one key point - the same liberal whiners that are complaining about the monitoring of certain targeted individuals would be shitting themselves to get in line to scream about the President not doing enough to protect us if there was another attack. This was not a blanket wiretap against every citizen that made a telephone call to London. These taps were conducted under defined circumstances. If you are not a terrorist, and do not associate with terrorists, you have nothing to worry about. The indignation being shown by the liberals right now is shocking - this information was not news to anyone within Congress (from either party) that was in a position to know it.
Hi Jamie -- long time no see! 1) Not that it is relevant, but I watched the towers fall. My office was at 14th and 7th, right next to the hospital. Guess what the area was like that day. I also knew two people who died in the towers, one of whom was a good friend. 2) Lets say you are right and there was a need to conduct the surveillance in question. Well, we had a legal process already to conduct it. The law provides for spying on US persons if the FISC approves, and the FISC has never (or, nearly never) denied a request, so there is no serious issue of getting approval under the legal process. The law provides that spying can begin 72 hours before the FISC is informed, so there is never an issue of "we need to start NOW and don't have time to file the papers". So, the issue is not whether the administration has the power to conduct surveillance of US persons. Clearly it does. he issue is that there is a legal process for doing that, described clearly in 50 USC 1801 to 50 USC 1811, which was violated. This process is very simple to follow and is apparently never an impediment, but it is a felony not to follow it. This process was specifically enacted by the Congress in response to the NSA's activities, so it was without doubt intended to cover these cases (that is legally relevant), and the law is so utterly transparently clear and easy to read that I encourage you and anyone else who wishes to to have a look at it: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_I.html Unlike most laws, it is only a few minutes to read and is trivially understandable by the non-lawyer. You cannot reasonably defend these actions on the basis that there were surveillance needs that the law did not provide for in the wake of 9/11 given that, as I've said, there is no problem conducting such surveillance under the existing law. The FISC's record of rubber stamping every request is legendary and it is not even necessary to go to the FISC first. So, we have no real national security reason for violating this process -- the authority to conduct surveillance is already legally provided for -- but we do have an administration that decides that it is too much trouble to follow even the minimal process that Congress enacted into law. We also have a felony, committed by the President (see 50 USC 1809) on the basis that national security required it, and yet there is no obvious benefit here to national security at all! I'm afraid that if you are going to find a basis for supporting the President's actions, you will have to find another one, since this did not allow the NSA to do anything it could not have done legally had the desire to follow the law been there. Perry _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events.(fwd), (continued)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events.(fwd) J.A. Terranson (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events.(fwd) Simon Richter (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Dude VanWinkle (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Jamie C. Pole (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Dude VanWinkle (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Jamie C. Pole (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Dude VanWinkle (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) David Barroso (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Jamie C. Pole (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) isaac.albeniz (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Perry E. Metzger (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) bkfsec (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) J.A. Terranson (Dec 18)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events. (fwd) Valdis . Kletnieks (Dec 18)
- RE: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events.(fwd) BsCaBl (Dec 19)
- Re: [Clips] A small editorial about recent events.(fwd) GroundZero Security (Dec 18)