Re: Apparently Milgram is still right

[Gadi Evron <ge () linuxbox org>]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
> I should have added, that what is also taught to all soldiers is that
> just because you can, or are told, to do something, doesn't mean you
> should.
>
> Many of these techniques are taught so that we can learn how to resist
> them.
>
> I think a lot of the problem is the lack of moral education in society
> in general. What is noteworthy about Abu Ghraib is that the soldiers
> involved were all relatively junior, and not Regular Army.

I will stop reading here. Moral education can be determined by whoever 
decides what's concensus for morals this year.

Analytical and critical thinking, on the other hand, as well as awareness 
of emotions (erm..) are something else entirely. How much of that is the 
army going to waste on soldiers?


> As far as Guantanamo goes: (says he sensing the rising hue and cry) I
> hold with John McCain on the matter, and he, who knows like no other
> elected official in the US about torture, was opposed to it from the
> first.
>
> If we become what we seek to defeat, the enemy has won.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]
> > On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:40 PM
> > To: Gadi Evron
> > Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; Alex Eckelberry; Rob,grandpa of Ryan, Trevor,
> > Devon & Hannah; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> >
> > All are taught at the war college.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org]
> > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:26 PM
> > > To: Tomas L. Byrnes
> > > Cc: Alex Eckelberry; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah;
> > > funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > >
> > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
> > > > The experiment is a dual one:
> > > >
> > > > 1: How far can someone be manipulated.
> > > >
> > > > 2: Are people really such sheep?
> > > >
> > > > My unscientific gut says that if you took the sample primarily from
> > > the
> > > > US Military, you'd get lots of demurs.
> > > >
> > > > The average Joe doesn't know what voltage is likely to hurt, or what
> > > the
> > > > laws of land warfare are.
> > > >
> > > > I think all this proves is that humans are highly influenced by
> their
> > > > social environment.
> > >
> > > Read up on (YouTube will do): Standford Prison Experiment
> > > Books to grab: Hogan's on cults (forgot the name), Influence by
> > Cialdini
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:04 PM
> > > > > To: Alex Eckelberry
> > > > > Cc: Tomas L. Byrnes; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah;
> > > > > funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Alex Eckelberry wrote:
> > > > > > True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals.  But in the end,
> > > > > > there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed.
> > > > >
> > > > > The participants themselves were manipulated. Their ethics are
> fine,
> > > > > they
> > > > > are simply not aware of what's going on or how to resist it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Smart people as we may be, we all treat dozens of things
> > > automatically,
> > > > > which can be abused. Belief in authority is one thing.. training
> for
> > > > > suspended disbelief in movies is another.
> > > > >
> > > > > The ethical issue here is the experiment being conducted.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality
> > > > > > interrogation technique.  It's overrated in its effectiveness, and
> > > > > > creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficult
> > > > for
> > > > > > me.  It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificist
> > > > ideology:
> > > > > > Because beating the living shit out of someone for information
> > > brings
> > > > > us
> > > > > > to the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying to
> > evolve
> > > > > > from for a very long time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://snipurl.com/8wosv
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alex
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org
> > > > [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]
> > > > > > On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM
> > > > > > To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > > > Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to,
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-
> > > > > bounces () linuxbox org]
> > > > > > > On Behalf Of Gadi Evron
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM
> > > > > > > To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > > > > Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > People are still willing to torture people, when told to do so
> by
> > > > an
> > > > > > > authority.
> > > > > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This may explain some recent happenings, but it is still
> > > > disturbing,
> > > > > > > nonetheless.
> > > > > > > > We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to push
> > > > > harder
> > > > > > > on the
> > > > > > > > ethics front.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What does this have to do with ethics?
> > > > > > > It's a trick question, think before answering. :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ======================  (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus
> > > Mailer)
> > > > > > > > rslade () vcn bc ca     slade () victoria tc ca
> > > > > > rslade () computercrime org
> > > > > > > > This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > set before you life and death, blessings and curses.  Now
> > > > > > > > choose life....                                  - Deuteronomy
> > > > 30:19
> > > > > > > > victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm
> > > > > > > blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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