Re: Apparently Milgram is still right

["Tomas L. Byrnes" <tomb () byrneit net>]

Which, given that the resistance of the body to which the current is
applied is relatively constant, is dependent on the voltage, up to the
maximum current the power supply can deliver.

In terms of delivering pain, voltage and pulse width can have more of an
effect than raw current, which effectively works by cooking. IE: You can
deliver lots of pain for little physical damage using the "correct"
circuit.

Not advocating torture, just pointing out that the physics are at least
as complex as the ethics.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blue Boar [mailto:BlueBoar () thievco com]
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:19 AM
> To: Tomas L. Byrnes
> Cc: Gadi Evron; Alex Eckelberry; funsec () linuxbox org; Rob, grandpa of
> Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
>
> It's not the volts, it's the amps.
>
>                                       BB
>
> Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
> > The experiment is a dual one:
> >
> > 1: How far can someone be manipulated.
> >
> > 2: Are people really such sheep?
> >
> > My unscientific gut says that if you took the sample primarily from
> the
> > US Military, you'd get lots of demurs.
> >
> > The average Joe doesn't know what voltage is likely to hurt, or what
> the
> > laws of land warfare are.
> >
> > I think all this proves is that humans are highly influenced by their
> > social environment.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org]
> > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:04 PM
> > > To: Alex Eckelberry
> > > Cc: Tomas L. Byrnes; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah;
> > > funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > >
> > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Alex Eckelberry wrote:
> > > > True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals.  But in the end,
> > > > there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed.
> > > The participants themselves were manipulated. Their ethics are fine,
> > > they
> > > are simply not aware of what's going on or how to resist it.
> > >
> > > Smart people as we may be, we all treat dozens of things
> automatically,
> > > which can be abused. Belief in authority is one thing.. training for
> > > suspended disbelief in movies is another.
> > >
> > > The ethical issue here is the experiment being conducted.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality
> > > > interrogation technique.  It's overrated in its effectiveness, and
> > > > creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficult
> > for
> > > > me.  It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificist
> > ideology:
> > > > Because beating the living shit out of someone for information
> brings
> > > us
> > > > to the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying to
evolve
> > > > from for a very long time.
> > > >
> > > > Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently:
> > > >
> > > > http://snipurl.com/8wosv
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Alex
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org
> > [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]
> > > > On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes
> > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM
> > > > To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > > Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > > >
> > > > I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to,
> > > doesn't
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-
> > > bounces () linuxbox org]
> > > > > On Behalf Of Gadi Evron
> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM
> > > > > To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > > Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > People are still willing to torture people, when told to do so by
> > an
> > > > > authority.
> > > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This may explain some recent happenings, but it is still
> > disturbing,
> > > > > nonetheless.
> > > > > > We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to push
> > > harder
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > ethics front.
> > > > > What does this have to do with ethics?
> > > > > It's a trick question, think before answering. :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ======================  (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus
> Mailer)
> > > > > > rslade () vcn bc ca     slade () victoria tc ca
> > > > rslade () computercrime org
> > > > > > This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I
> > > have
> > > > > > set before you life and death, blessings and curses.  Now
> > > > > > choose life....                                  - Deuteronomy
> > 30:19
> > > > > > victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm
> > > > > blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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