Re: Professional Scrpt Kiddies vs Real Talent

["Adriel T. Desautels" <ad_lists () netragard com>]

Hi Wim, my comments are embedded below.


On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Wim Remes wrote:

> while I understand what triggered this post and/or e-mail, it is barely scratching the surface.  Infosec is so much 
> more than finding vulnerabilities in products that you can hardly limit a list of "security experts" to people doing 
> vulnerability research.

Why are you making the assumption that Vulnerability Research is limited to "products"? 

>  It just ain't right.  For me there's two kind of people in infosec : People that are actually contributing to a very 
> open and interactive community (no, not by stepping in the limelight at cons and trying to make a name for 
> themselves, this happens on different levels and at varying scales) and then there's the parasites who try to surf 
> along on every wave but not giving back for what they've taken but rehashing ideas of others and not giving proper 
> credit.  The latter kind don't tend to hang around for very long though ...

Interesting perspective and I can't say that I share your view in its entirety.  That said, I certainly agree that 
contributing to the community is of huge value.  I think that our contributions are proof of that aren't they?

> H.D. Moore comes to mind.  He's probably one of the smartest infosec people around.

I love HD, so do the people on our team, but I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say that he's "one of the smartest". 
 When you decide that someone is "the best" that's the moment that someone better surfaces and you end up looking like 
an ass. The general rule of thumb is "the more I know the more I know I don't know" and "there's always someone 
better". That said, HD does deserve respect for what he has accomplished and contributed especially since most of it 
was done for free and on his own time.  

>  Do you blame him for creating Metasploit and enabling scriptkiddies to hack or do you credit him for creating 
> Metasploit which allows companies and overworked admins to actually perform some kind of pentesting and learn about 
> security in the software they use ?

To your later point, Microsoft should be credited for building windows (because they did) and Apple for OS X (because 
they did).  HD made Metasploit, so give him credit for it just the same.  The reason why HD deserves respect isn't 
because he created Metasploit, its because of how he created it and what he contributed to the community for free.  

> I'll choose the latter. Sure, 9 out of 10 won't use it as it was intended (a exploit development framework) but if 1 
> out of 10 does, that's enough of a result to continue.

Where do you get your stats from?

> I disagree with your position that any serious security services provider HAS TO DO security research (vulnerability 
> research and exploit development). Fact is, it rarely educates people about risk.  At best it makes them take a 
> second look at their patch management process. 

So then you settle for a lower quality standard than we do, and that's fine so long as you understand the risks 
involved.  More importantly, its important that your customers understand those risks and that those risks are 
acceptable to them. We can't dictate what an acceptable risk is, but we can dictate the quality of our services.  With 
a continually evolving threat it only seems prudent to maintain the highest levels of quality, doesn't it?

> In the end, everybody actively working to share information and knowledge on a daily basis to advance the infosec 
> profession is a rockstar in my book. And yes, that includes people talking about DNSSEC on stage while under the 
> influence of copious amounts of bourbon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> W
>
> On 05 Mar 2010, at 03:08, Adriel Desautels wrote:
>
> > Posted on: http://snosoft.blogspot.com/2010/03/good-guys-in-security-world-are-no.html
> >
> > Comments, insults, etc. on the blog (or here) are more than welcome.
> >
> > --
> >
> > The Good Guys in the security world are no different from the Bad Guys; most of them are nothing more than glorified 
> > Script Kiddies. The fact of the matter is that if you took all of the self-proclaimed hackers in the world and you 
> > subjected them to a litmus test, very few would pass as actual hackers.
> >
> > This is true for both sides of the proverbial Black and White hat coin. In the Black Hat world, you have script-kids 
> > who download programs that are written by other people then use those programs to “hack” into networks. The White 
> > Hat’s do the exact same thing; only they buy the expensive tools instead of downloading them for free. Or maybe 
> > they’re actually paying for the pretty GUI, who knows?
> >
> > What is pitiable is that in just about all cases these script kiddies have no idea what the programs actually do. 
> > Sometimes that’s because they don’t bother to look at the code, but most of the time its because they just can’t 
> > understand it. If you think about it that that is scary. Do you really want to work with a security company that 
> > launches attacks against your network with tools that they do not fully understand? I sure wouldn’t.
> >
> > This is part of the reason why I feel that it is so important for any professional security services provider to 
> > maintain an active research team. I’m not talking about doing market research and pretending that its security 
> > research like so many security companies do. I’m talking about doing actual vulnerability research and exploit 
> > development to help educate people about risks for the purposes of defense. After all, if a security company can’t 
> > write an exploit then what business do they have launching exploits against your company?
> >
> > I am very proud to say that Everything Channel recently released the 2010 CRN Security Researchers list and that 
> > Netragard’s Kevin Finisterre was on the list. Other people that were included in the list are people that I have the 
> > utmost respect for. As far as I am concerned, these are the top security experts:
> >
> >   * Dino Dai Zovi
> >   * Kevin Finisterre
> >   * Landon Fuller
> >   * Robert Graham
> >   * Jeremiah Grossman
> >   * Larry Highsmith
> >   * Billy Hoffman
> >   * Mikko Hypponen
> >   * Dan Kaminsky
> >   * Paul Kocher
> >   * Nate Lawson
> >   * David Litchfield
> >   * Charles Miller
> >   * Jeff Moss
> >   * Jose Nazario
> >   * Joanna Rutkowska
> >
> >
> > In the end I suppose it all boils down to what the customer wants. Some customers want to know their risks; others 
> > just want to put a check in the box. For those who want to know what their real risks are, you’ve come to the right 
> > place.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This list is sponsored by: Information Assurance Certification Review Board
> >
> > Prove to peers and potential employers without a doubt that you can actually do a proper penetration test. IACRB CPT 
> > and CEPT certs require a full practical examination in order to become certified.
> >
> > http://www.iacertification.org
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



        Adriel T. Desautels
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This list is sponsored by: Information Assurance Certification Review Board

Prove to peers and potential employers without a doubt that you can actually do a proper penetration test. IACRB CPT 
and CEPT certs require a full practical examination in order to become certified.

http://www.iacertification.org
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