RE: University Degree or CISSP

["Ken Kousky" <kkousky () ip3inc com>]

Toby - this is part of the problem with many techie arguments, Bill Gates
dropped out so I don't have to work hard, study, get a solid education. No,
I can take a one week bootcamp and get certified and do the job.

Security work requires a great deal of technical knowledge as well as solid
understanding of the business itself.

American's will continue to see their jobs outsourced as long as the drive
to under-education and shortcutting the pursuit of knowledge, which is very
hard work, continues.

If one looks at any serious study on lifetime earnings, there is
overwhelming data that shows a substantial and sustained growth in earnings
resulting from college and post graduate degrees. 

The paper is the symbol - it's the education that counts and just as
desecrating the flag takes on importance because of the symbol and not the
cotton or nylon fabric, discussions that suggest that degrees don't matter
get confused as education doesn't matter.

Our original question of CISSP or Degree shouldn't be based on anecdotal
experiences with PhD or CISSPs but rather on the well documented fact that a
degree in this economy matters more than ever and we do a terrible
disservice to young professionals to every suggest that certification can be
construed to substitute for an advanced education.

I stand behind the argument that there is absolutely no comparison between
an honest degree (not those I'm offered by the hundreds every day online)
and a certification.


-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Barrick [mailto:tbarrick () cox net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:52 PM
To: Ken Kousky; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: University Degree or CISSP

Ken,

With you as a degree holder (I assume that you are) I'm sure that you 
feel that way about a degree. The fact of the matter is that a degree is 
a piece of paper, a mark on a stick as to what you have spent in dollars 
and time. A CISSP is a mark on a stick as to what you know (memorized) 
about security related issues (plus whatever money was spent). Neither 
of which, in the real word is worth it's weight in paper.

I know lots of folks that have PhD that are worthless. Yeah they bang 
down the bucks due to the paper on the wall, but they are totally 
clueless. I know mechanics that make more than I do investing in futures.

I'm not a big fan of the guy but take Bill Gates for example. He does 
not have a degree, he dropped out of college. I'd actually be surprised 
if he even has any certifications.

The bottom line counts in this world is vision, insight, intuition, hard 
work, and a feel for situations that whisper "this is not right," I can 
fix it - then acting on that thought.

Ok - I'm sure the flames will fly in my face, but that is my opinion.

Have a great day.


Ken Kousky wrote:

> This is the craziest conversation I ever heard of - there is NO comparison
> between a REAL degree and CISSP. CISSP is great, valuable and vital but it
> isn't in any way comparable. 
>
> Simply put, if you don't have a degree - get one and get the best one you
> can.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Huang, John, GCM [mailto:John.Huang () rbsgc com] 
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:41 PM
> To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Re: University Degree or CISSP
>
> Degree or CISSP? It depends on where you are in life. A degree helps you
> in the door and advancement into a management position usually require a
> college degree. But if you're already in the field and don't have a
> college degree, a CISSP cert is easier to obtain in a shorter amount of
> time, and provide more immediate benefit since you can put the things
> you learn into use.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shyaam () gmail com [mailto:shyaam () gmail com] 
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 10:25 PM
> To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: Re: University Degree or CISSP
>
> Yes,
> Very true. Nothing counts equivalent to experience, but experience comes
> only when someone starts somewhere. I have seen one big thing happening
> around. People in the industries shifted from technology to business,
> that is the point when they lost the security and created more loopholes
> in their own products as they reduced the time needed, reduced budgets
> and spent more on advertisements and marketing. 
> How does that reflect on people. They need people already with
> experience. But how is that possible. Everybody needs to start
> somewhere. So experience does count, but I would say some foundation,
> some added qualification and some experience is good for a cool job. For
> a startup job, some degree and some cert is essential.
>
> PS: This is my opinion, I am not pointing out any company or any private
> organization.
>
> -S-
>
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> EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
> The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
> education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. 
> Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
> customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity
Planning,
> Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. 
>
> http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
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>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
> The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
> education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. 
> Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
> customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity
Planning, 
> Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. 
>
> http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. 
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, 
Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. 

http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------