Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle
From: "sysman" <sysman () vsnl com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:33:10 +0530
Florian, The scenario painted by you is scary. Is Nazism and GDR is still alive in German government veins? Can they become third Reich again? Will the world allow that? Is the media not independent or government slave? Is judiciary committed to government and not independent? I can understand the power grabbing by government servants. That is true everywhere. But, the media, judiciary and social checks and controls keep them on control. I have a different opinion of Unified Germany. Since, you are part of it, you know better. Regards, Rakesh -----Original Message----- From: Florian Streck [mailto:streck () papafloh de] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:53 PM To: rakesh () sysman in Cc: 'Paul Sebastian Ziegler'; bugtraq () securityfocus com; 'full-disclosure' Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Hello Rakesh,
2. Even if, it is there, it is for Public good. It is to protect you
against
terrorism. Yes, this amounts to big brother is watching, but many times, that is essential. Remember USA 9/11/2001, London 7/7/2006, India (many
many
incidents). Have trust in your government. I believe, German government machinery is reasonable efficient and honest. If communication
transactions
are logged, what is the harm? In case of any incident, how will the government investigate? If you are a security professional, don't you
advise
your client for all this like audit logs etc.
I think this is not correct. People with enough "criminal energy" have ways to circumvent any of the governments measures. The only people caught by this are idiot criminals, people that are to lazy to protect teir privacy (like me) and the normal citizen who has no idea of what is happening. The harm is, that if your communication habbits have suspicious patterns you are a suspect. And you don't even know about it. Like those No-Fly-Lists. You don't know that you are on it till it's too late (and you miss your flight) and you have no way to get of it. How do you prove that you are innocent if the polices software says you are behaving suspicious?
3. Even if, you need to protest, please do. This is your right. But, this
is
not the way to protest. Even if you say that technically you are not breaking any law, the difference between you and a law breaker is very
thin.
If you want to protect, use democratic methods. Write about it in print media. Use electronic media to mobilise opinion. Create Blogs. Send
e-mails.
Lobby with MPs (members of Bundestag). If your ideas will appeal to
people,
many will raise voice. Ultimately, law is manifestation of social aspirations for social good. As I understand, Germany (Deutschland) is a vibrant democracy and not a dictatorship or oppressive state. Further, ask the background - why this law was necessary? In a democracy, laws are made after careful and well defined process. Ask for the details of the
process. All this is beeing done right now. As soon as this law is put into effect there will be an action at the constitutional court. But I fear that this will not be enough. We will have to investigate the government measures and develop technical countermeasures. And then teach the people what is done, what's the harm in it and how to circumvent it.
4. If you can cite some incidents of misuse / oppression by the government machinery of any other law, you can quote that in venting your feelings / opinion.
We have a sad history of oppressive governments that used just methods like that. First it was the nazis and then in eastern germany the socialist government. They'd have been thrilled about the possibilities that our police will get. They also mixed up secret services and police as it is beeing done right now here in germany. They (at least the nazis) used democratic laws to build a dictatorship. Right now we still have a democracy. But I'm not sure where the way will go to. Florian Streck No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 13-Nov-07 11:09 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1130 - Release Date: 14-Nov-07 9:27 AM _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle, (continued)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Nico Golde (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - ProjectHayNeedle nate . mcfeters (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - ProjectHayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Jan Newger (Nov 12)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle johan beisser (Nov 12)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Valdis . Kletnieks (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Timo Schoeler (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Streck (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle LT (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Vincent Archer (Nov 12)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Timo Schoeler (Nov 15)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle imipak (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Echtler (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Simon Richter (Nov 18)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Echtler (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Nico Golde (Nov 10)