WebApp Sec mailing list archives
RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK
From: securityarchitect () hush com
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:02:30 -0800
I don't disagree with most of what you and Glyn said. It was well put and a good debate. Thanks. My point is that training should be about educating people about the right things to do, not recounting or accepting that people don't do that today. Of course we need to be real but we need to educate executives thats its not good enough to test at the end of a projects lifecycle. Thats a training course that really needs to happen in itself. If we say this is what happens in the real world (its always late, we never have money, no time etc) well never tackle the problem strategically and be in the same place next year. Fucntional testing was in the same place a few years back but you look at any good dev shops unit test now and you can see how testing can be integrated into dev cycles pretty easily. Of course there is a place for pen testing. But IMHO its nowhere near the place it is often perceived today. I think we agree on that. This list is frequentled by more pen test types as well I would muse so the responses are skewed. If you ask secprog (and the debate is going on there now) they have a very different focus and if you as CISSP lists I am sure it will be equally skewed. My point and I think yours is that good training needs to encompass all aspects of web application security. It should be about teaching people the things they need to do, as well as teaching them the things they already do better. On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:39:40 -0800 Craig_Sullivan () Waitrose co uk wrote:
Hmmm, Methinks that security architect has possibly not had to work for a company that is the recipient of these services.Firstly there is little accountability. Its perceived as an artand not a science and therefore you really have little confidence that all of the things that should have been tested were<< Yes, but we accept these limitations when engaging a security firm to cover those areas where we may have limited experience or time. People accepting poor quality output from a security assessment are themselves to blame as much as the 'market' is for foisting solutions that may have limited applicability to reducing 'real risks' they are likely to encounter.Someone once used a great analogy. If you're testing for cancerwould you take someone's temperature? << This is a poor analogy for security and risk asessment. We don't test for temperature but instead try to reduce the patients desire to smoke, drink or otherwise ingest stuff that would increase the risk of cancer. If they have cancer, you are too late pal.....Assess strategically not tactically. Asses how security is bakedinto the development process and not just in a deployment scenario.<< It would be wonderful if I had the chance to build security in from the start of every development project. Whilst continuing to educate developers (who are often churning through new staff) about security best practice, I still have to rely upon assessments to catch transgressions. The usability industry is no stranger to this scenario; In many cases, clients ask usability consultants to find problems with an interface that has *already been developed*. The same situation exists with web application security - in many cases, I'm asked to identify problems that shouldn't have arisen in the first place. Whinging about this doesn't address the problems though - I have to educated developers but this doesn't obviate the need to perform some level of app security testing, often late in the development cycle (for late, read 1 week before release). In the abscence of security conscious developers, we have to rely upon education AND compliance testing during a project. I personally think that many of the services offered to 'assess' security from established companies are pretty lame these days. They cannot possibly understand the background that the developers have, understand 'bad practice' that has established itself within a company or provide assessments that leverage internal knowledge of where vulnerabilities may lie. We accept these limitations of any assessments that may be provided and direct them appropriately towards areas that we know are weak. It isn't that we suggest that you do only one or the other - there is a place for education and a need for verification. What I'm worried about is that many companies will seek to exploit app vulnerabilities to clients without addressing the underlying problems with the platforms and development approach. Craig. This is a poor analogy for security and risk asessment. We don't test for temperature but instead try to reduce the patients desire to smoke, drink or otherwise in securityarchitec t () hush com To: dan () idsec com, glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com cc: webappsec () securityfocus com 03/12/02 19:08 Subject: RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK With respect I think your description of security assessment training is woefully inadequate in todays world. Penetration testing is a snapshot at best and a time trial at worst. Having ran some teams for some well known consulting companies in the past I know all to well the business model and why its pushed so hard by them. Now working in corporate America I also see why we the clients (yeah we as in my company and others at like minded user groups who surprisingly do talk) are getting very frustrated with some security consulting companies and training companies. <rant> Firstly there is little accountability. Its perceived as an art and not a science and therefore you really have little confidence that all of the things that should have been tested were. Secondly with 78% of attacks being from insiders (see FBI reports) , looking at the hard crunchy outside is of little value. Too many companies reports read "High Vulnerability ? Parameter tampering". After the sticker shock you read between the lines and find out you can change the page color and they have made an incredible leap of faith from that to saying you "may" be able to login in with another users username. An indicator of parameter tampering in one place can lead to it in another. It's the consulting fluff syndrome. You've all heard it before I am sure. "These sessionID's don't look random". Well test the randomness if you have a math degree! If not look for the source of randomness and if /urandom is used then call it out. </rant> Someone once used a great analogy. If you're testing for cancer would you take someone's temperature? Would you look at their eyeballs? Hell No! Get them on the cat scan machine. Even if the eyeballs are dilated and you can tell theyre ill, you still need to locate the problem (offending code) to treat it. One of the things I liked when I spoke to the OWASP testing people was how they are going to cover what I think should be included in a web application security testing methodology. In a structured meaningful test you need to firstly sit down and understand the security requirements. How can you ever say there is a problem unless you know the requirements and how it should be? Secondly you need to understand the application architecture. That's an assessment in itself! How are people using JNDI, LDAP JMS <insert architecture component of choice here>. People are finally realizing that XSS is easily cured with a proper architecture;-) You don't fix it tactically, you fix it strategically. Then there is a technical assessment which is where most people think the pen test comes in. But think of this. My requirements have shown that sessions timeout after 20 mins and my architecture review shows I use the servlet container config (server.xml) to do it and the controller servlet to enforce it. I can sit there with a perl script and make a request every 21 mins to each url (dumb in my opinion) or I can parse web.xml and server.xml for the config. Ones a much more effective way to technically test the requirements have been implemented IMHO. A pen test may have a place in ensuring that stuffs functioning as it should be that's where it belongs again IMHO, flamesOff(security, architect). And then there's a security source code review, a web application security management review (what happens when it goes down, who reviews logs, what policy exists to manage the security of the application). Web application security assessment is far more than a pen test. They are prevalent because consulting companies can pull the wool of clients eyes with buzz words and hacker speak, not to mention the business model that works well for the consulting companies. If you pay 40K for a hit and run that's good business. But if you fix the first hole and have to pay $40K for the next then its not economical and the client will soon feel ripped of. And why does this relate to training? Well people IMHO need to be trained that web application security assessment consists of many things not just how to own a web server in 20 mins or how to test for XSS from the outside. Assess strategically not tactically. Asses how security is baked into the development process and not just in a deployment scenario. On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:14 -0800 Glyn Geoghegan <glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com> wrote:You also need to determine whether the training you want is 1/ Architecting secure applications 2/ Building secure applications 3/ Application Security Assessments (pentesting) Each has a very different target audience, and its own set of concerns. Secure application architecture can involve broad concepts (e.g. using proper input validation, building a tiered structure of least privilege) or specifics (e.g. secure .Net design). Building secure apps could start with pseudo code examples of important programming concepts and drill down into specific languages with their pros and cons. Application Security Assessments could take an application slant on more typical ethical hacking type courses. I believe @Stake, ISS and Defcom provide Application courses in the UK. http://www.atstake.com/services/education/courses.html Glyn.-----Original Message----- From: Dan Cuthbert [mailto:dan () idsec com] Sent: 02 December 2002 21:57 To: phuc4 () hushmail com Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com Subject: Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK i think the problem is finding a trainer that understands theproblems associated with web applications and security. also the trainer that is providing the training would need to haveone helluvah understanding of security\building applications and the whole process its a lovely idea... hmmm yeah i can see a owasp opportunityhere* phuc4 () hushmail com (phuc4 () hushmail com) wrote:I have unsuccessfully been looking for any decent WebAppSectrainingcourses in the UK. It seems that courses are more on the networking side of thingsorwhen restricted to either specific technologies like J2EEor .Net butI have yet to find a useful technology independent coursethat takesin the wider picture as well as the grimey details. Any ideas? Maybe OWASP could start doing training courses? Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2 Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program: https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427---------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient(s) only. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. 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Current thread:
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK, (continued)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 02)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Mark Curphey (Dec 02)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Glyn Geoghegan (Dec 03)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK securityarchitect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Jeff Williams @ Aspect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Jeff Williams @ Aspect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Glyn (Dec 04)