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Fwd: Looking for a little help

From: mick at pauldotcom.com (Michael Douglas)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:23:28 -0500
GSE jobs are not common, so you have to pick certain geographic
regions to get any hits on job boards.

Go to Dice.com and search GSE in the Washington DC area.  What bugs me
though are the postings with a "Must possess one or more of the
following" followed by alphabet soup.  HR folks (I know there aren't
any on this list... again a topic for another rant) the CISSP != GSE.
 Heck putting them together like that is a big indicator that you're
not so clued in.

You're right though... certs are both good and evil.  I think for me
they've worked out well, but YMMV.


- Mick


On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Chris Clymer <cclymer at gmail.com> wrote:

Mick, can you link or describe any of these GSE type jobs? ?Somehow
ive just never seen them. The challenge of going GSE sounds like a lot
of fun...i just havent yet convinced myself that all that hard work
and money would really benefit my career any more then dedicating the
same effort and less $$$ elsewhere.

There are few enough GSE level technical folks out there that today at
least they generally have no issues finding jobs without the cert.

Problem for SANS is some employers will pay for domain specific
courses certs, few will spring for the GSE and its a sizable personal
commitment. Ive self funded a few exams, but those all cost under $600.

Honestly, i could argue for days about certs. ?I have a love/hate
relationship with them, i still cant make up my mind if theyre helping
our industry become more or less mature

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Michael Douglas <mick at pauldotcom.com>
wrote:


Disclaimer: I'm not a SANS instructor but I do play as a junior one at
community events. ?As such, I don't have much of an insider's view on
this cert...

Here's my take on this:
The GSE is the uber cert. ?It's meant to be like the CCIE is... for
someone who wants to remain deeply technical and earn the very top
salary in our industry this is the way to go. ?All the postings I see
where GSE is even mentioned are stone cold NINJA level.

The current GSE reqs are here:
http://www.giac.org/certifications/gse.php#prereq

As for why more/all SANS instructors don't have it? ?My guess (and
this is only a guess) is that they don't need it... if it's not needed
they'll spend the time/effort instead on teaching classes -- which is
probably in SANS overall better interest. (Heck it's in our industry's
interest too... I'd rather see several hundereds of people get better
at infosec than just a handful of ninjas made. ?True it's not an
either/or choice, but humor me OK?) ?Also I'd be interested to see how
GIAC/SANS would address conflict of interest issues... ?It might make
it a little fishy if a super majority of the cert holders are
"internal" to the organization.

Finally, market forces being what they are, I think the case for the
GSE is such that it isn't for everyone. ?If you're highly motivated,
have some talent, and want to make serious coin, the GSE is for you.
True the GSE is costly to get, but you can shave the monetary expense
greatly by TA'ing the classes you need. ?The true costs I see are
time... and it is a significant investment... but the payoffs (at
least from where I'm sitting) appear to be quite nice indeed.

At some point a few years out, I might go for the GSE... I know I want
to get other GIAC certs. ?I guess the biggest thing I don't get is
that in light of all the pros for this cert that more folks don't
attempt it. ?Yes it's hard to get... but that's by design. ?We do not
value that which is easily obtained (don't know if I'm quoting someone
or not)

My take on this distilled all the way down is this: ?If you're on the
fence about the GSE, freaking do it already. ?If you're at a point
where you can consider grasping the brass ring, why would you not?

<end of ramble>

- Mick




On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Chris Clymer <cclymer at gmail.com>
wrote:

Problem for me is that the GSE is f'ing expensive, i dont believe
the certs
i have count in more than a minor way (GPEN & GWAPT) and ive never
seen it
on a job app.
Great accomplishment if you can swing it, but i question the ROI.
As far as
i can tell most SANS instructors dont even have it.
I was on the email chain about revising GSE requirements, and i
still cant
tell what i would need to do to get it. As a SANS instructor, is it
any more
clear to you?

Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:23 AM, John Strand <strandjs at gmail.com> wrote:

This is odd.... ?Chris wants to take the GSE exam and needs to have
some
more people sign up or the test is going to get canceled.

Well, the challenge is out. ?Get out and and sign up for the GSE.

Look, I am one of the first people to say that many tech
certifications in
and of themselves mean little. ?However, in many situations they are
required to get and maintain the job you want... ?When you look at
many of
the cool jobs in security they are asking for SANS certs... Why?
Because
they mean something.

This one means even more. This industry needs to have a cert where if
someone has it we can say with a high degree of certainty that they
know
what the hell they are talking about on a wide variety of topics in
security. GSE is that cert.

I also know that many of you collect SANS certs like Pokymon
cards... ?GSE
is a nice cap.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chris Mohan <christopher.mohan at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 3:48 AM
Subject: Looking for a little help
To: strandjs at gmail.com, jstrand at sans.org


Hello John,

I'm after a little bit, well possibility a lot, of help from you.

I've decided attempt the GSE exam this year. That's not the problem,
although a touch of insanity and delusion on my part perhaps. ?The
problem
is that only one other person has also signed up, despite GIAC
changing the
requirements.

The bit of help I'm after is for you and the folks at Pauldotcom to
put out
the challenge to other saner folk to step up with me and get on to
the GSE
track.

If an English bloke, living in Australia that works with Windows -
and the
fully featured firewall that is ISA - can try for the GSE, then I'd
hope for
at least five of your ex-students or PDC listeners to take that
step with
me.

There seems to be a massive fear factor about the GSE exams, so
I've started
off a blog, witty entitled http://gse.chris-mohan.com to chart my
attempt
and break down some of that GSE FUD.

As Paul and Larry first put me on the path to SANS training, back in
December of 2005, it would be a neat twist of fate if they could
help out by
getting me some brilliant people to be part of the final two day
practical
exam.

I'd love to be in the room in Las Vegas working with some great
minds to
nail the last day's challenge. You and the guys either know or can
reach
these people and can inspire them to give it a try.

To quote a chick with bagels on her head "This is our most
desperate hour.
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope"

A desperate, somewhat over-dramatic plea from the Sunny shores of
Sydney

Chris


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