RE: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Robert DeVita <radevita () mejeticks com>]

The biggest difference we see is that the “non commercial” IX’s are now building metro fabrics across multiple 
different datacenter providers. When you look at the costs, you need to look at the colo as part of that cost also. 
Allowing datacenters to compete for space and power drives down the costs for end users while also allowing them to 
connect to the fabric.

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Robert DeVita

Managing Director

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214-305-2444

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From: NANOG <nanog-bounces () nanog org> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:11 AM
To: Darin Steffl <darin.steffl () mnwifi com>
Cc: NANOG Mailing List <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free 
colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily 
anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about "cost".

They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around 
over twice as long. Scale helps with cost.


-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
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________________________________
From: "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl () mnwifi com<mailto:darin.steffl () mnwifi com>>
To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net<mailto:nanog () ics-il net>>
Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet () akcin net<mailto:mehmet () akcin net>>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog () nanog 
org<mailto:nanog () nanog org>>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
http://micemn.net/services.html

MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely 
free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it 
versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit.

For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and 
MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net<mailto:nanog () ics-il net>> wrote:
Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-)

At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX.


-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
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________________________________
From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet () akcin net<mailto:mehmet () akcin net>>
To: "Clayton Zekelman" <clayton () mnsi net<mailto:clayton () mnsi net>>
Cc: "Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net<mailto:nanog () ics-il net>>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog () nanog 
org<mailto:nanog () nanog org>>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy () gmail com<mailto:raphael.timothy () gmail com>>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
Torix and Six are great examples.

If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton () mnsi net<mailto:clayton () mnsi net>> wrote:

TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.

https://www.torix.ca/

A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.

Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing is listed up front on their website:

https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing



At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are 
only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.



-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>

Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
________________________________
From: "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy () gmail com<mailto:raphael.timothy () gmail com>>
To: "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog () nanog org<mailto:nanog () nanog org>>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that 
don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits.
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand 
without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the 
monopolies in niche markets.

The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially 
somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.

Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial 
alliances that lead to not-total neutrality.
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds 
and resources which ensures accountability reliability.


- Tim


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns () 2mbit com<mailto:bruns () 2mbit com>> wrote:
>
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
> > Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for 
> > interconnection plus your bump.  If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's 
> > no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
>
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
>
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.  Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought 
> up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
>
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very 
> good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
>
> People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people 
> over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong.
> --
> Brielle Bruns
> The Summit Open Source Development Group
> http://www.sosdg.org<http://www.sosdg.org/>     /     http://www.ahbl.org<http://www.ahbl.org/>


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Clayton Zekelman
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--
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903



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Darin Steffl
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