Re: Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless network setup?

[Ray Soucy <rps () maine edu>]

Compared to the old model of just providing coverage, it's definitely
higher density.  I think the point I was trying to make is that the old
high density is the new normal, and what most on list would consider high
density is more along the lines of stadium wireless.  I wouldn't really
focus on the term too much, though.  It's just a distraction from the real
question.

The answer as always is "it depends".  Without detailed floor plans, survey
information, and information on what kind of demand users will place on the
network, there is really no way to tell you what solution will work well.

If you need to service residential areas or hostel units you might be
better off looking at some of the newer AP designs that have come out in
the last year or so targeting that application, like the Cisco 702 or the
Xirus 320.

The general design of these units is that they're both a low-power AP and a
small switch to provide residents with a few ports to plug in if they need
to.  This allows you to have one cable drop to each room instead of having
to run separate jacks for APs and wired connections.  The units are
wall-mount and if you have a challenging RF environment this design can be
really effective.

I've never run Xirrus personally, but I think they were used for the last
NANOG conference.





On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Sina Owolabi <notify.sina () gmail com> wrote:

> Thanks everybody. I've been corrected on density... I've been informed
> that it's to be a minimum of 1000 users per building.
> That's 8,000 users. (8 buildings, not counting walkways and courtyards,
> admin, etc.)
> Does this qualify as high-density?
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:33 AM Ray Soucy <rps () maine edu> wrote:
>
> > Well, I could certainly be wrong, but it's news to me if UBNT started
> > supporting DFS in the US.
> >
> > Your first screenshot is listing the UAP for 5240 which is channel 48,
> > U-NII-1.  The second show 5825 which is the upper limit of U-NNI-3.  I
> > don't see any U-NII-2 in what you posted.
> >
> > This forum post may be a bit out of date, but I haven't seen any
> > announcement or information on the forums to indicate the situation has
> > changed, and I'm pretty good at searching:
> >
> > https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/DFS/m-p/700461#M54771
> >
> > From this thread it looks like the ability to configure DFS channels in
> > the
> > US was a UI bug and only showing for ZH anyway.  IIRC they actually got in
> > a bit of trouble with the FCC over not restricting the use of these
> > channels enough.
> >
> > Regardless of whether or not the FCC has cleared UBNT indoor products for
> > U-NII-2 and U-NII-2-extended (and I haven't seen evidence of that yet),
> > until you can configure APs to use those channels in the controller
> > without
> > violating FCC regulations I don't consider them usable.
> >
> > The UAP-AC doesn't seem to support DFS channels at all even without FCC
> > restrictions, which kind of kills the point of AC, only 4 x 40 MHz or 2 x
> > 80 MHz channels doesn't cut it when we're talking about density.
> >
> > Note we're talking about indoor wireless and there ARE some UBNT products
> > for outdoor WISP use that do support DFS and have been cleared by the FCC,
> > but we would only be looking at the UAP-PRO or UAP-AC in this case so
> > maybe
> > that's the point of confusion here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <faisal () snappytelecom net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > FCC Cert claims different.
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > > Faisal Imtiaz
> > > Snappy Internet & Telecom
> > > 7266 SW 48 Street
> > > Miami, FL 33155
> > > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
> > >
> > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: Support () Snappytelecom net
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > *From: *"Josh Luthman" <josh () imaginenetworksllc com>
> > > *To: *"Faisal Imtiaz" <faisal () snappytelecom net>
> > > *Cc: *"NANOG list" <nanog () nanog org>, "Ray Soucy" <rps () maine edu>
> > > *Sent: *Friday, June 19, 2015 9:16:37 PM
> > >
> > > *Subject: *Re: Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless network
> >
> > > setup?
> > >
> > > Uhm he's not wrong...
> > >
> > > Josh Luthman
> > > Office: 937-552-2340
> > > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > > 1100 Wayne St
> > > Suite 1337
> > > Troy, OH 45373
> > > On Jun 19, 2015 9:13 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <faisal () snappytelecom net>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > The thing you need to watch out for with Ubiquiti is that they don't
> > > > support DFS, so the entire U-NII-2 channel space is off limits for 5
> > GHz.
> > > > Huh ????
> > > >
> > > > Please verify your facts before making blanket statements which are not
> > > > accurate ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Faisal Imtiaz
> > > > Snappy Internet & Telecom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ray Soucy" <rps () maine edu>
> > > > > To: "Sina Owolabi" <notify.sina () gmail com>
> > > > > Cc: "nanog () nanog org list" <nanog () nanog org>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 7:07:01 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless
> > network
> > > > setup?
> > > > > I know you don't want to hear this answer because of cost but I've
> > had
> > > > good
> > > > > luck with Cisco for very high density (about 1,000 clients in a
> > packed
> > > > > auditorium actively using the network as they follow along with the
> > > > > presenter).
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing you need to watch out for with Ubiquiti is that they don't
> > > > > support DFS, so the entire U-NII-2 channel space is off limits for 5
> > > > GHz.
> > > > > That's pretty significant because you're limited to 9 x 20 MHz
> > channels
> > > > or
> > > > > 4 x 40 MHz channels.  Keeping the power level down and creating small
> > > > cells
> > > > > is essential for high density, so with less channels your hands are
> > > > really
> > > > > tied in that case.  Also, avoid the Zero Handoff marketing nonsense
> > they
> > > > > advertise; I'm sure it can work great for a low client residential
> > area
> > > > but
> > > > > it requires all APs to share a single channel and depends upon
> > > > coordinating
> > > > > only one active transmitter at a time, so it simply won't scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't have experience with other vendors at large scale or high
> > > > density.
> > > > > I don't think what you're talking about is really high density
> > anymore
> > > > > though.  That's just normal coverage.  Wireless is a lot more
> > > > complicated
> > > > > than selecting a vendor, though.  If you know what you're doing even
> > > > > Ubiquiti could work decently, but if you don't even a Cisco solution
> > > > won't
> > > > > save you.  You really need to be on top of surveying correctly and
> > > > having
> > > > > appropriate AP placement and channel distribution.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Sina Owolabi <notify.sina () gmail com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are profiling equipment and design for an expected high user
> > > > density
> > > > > > network of multiple, close nit, residential/hostel units. Its going
> > > > to be
> > > > > > 8-10 buildings with possibly a over 1000 users at any given time.
> > > > > > We are looking at Ruckus and Ubiquiti as options to get over the
> > high
> > > > > > number of devices we are definitely going to encounter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How did you do it, and what would you advise for product and
> > layout?
> > > > > > Thanks in advance!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ray Patrick Soucy
> > > > > Network Engineer
> > > > > University of Maine System
> > > > >
> > > > > T: 207-561-3526
> > > > > F: 207-561-3531
> > > > >
> > > > > MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
> > > > > www.maineren.net
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ray Patrick Soucy
> > Network Engineer
> > University of Maine System
> >
> > T: 207-561-3526
> > F: 207-561-3531
> >
> > MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
> > www.maineren.net


-- 
Ray Patrick Soucy
Network Engineer
University of Maine System

T: 207-561-3526
F: 207-561-3531

MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
www.maineren.net