Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Paul Vixie <vixie () vix com>]

I guess I've got a little bit of a mad on about this topic.  Hit "D" now.

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floresp10 () cox net ("Paul A Flores") writes:

> What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows
> the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference
> between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man.

The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage
man.  I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full
time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and
my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow 
truck (which paid better than either.)  As it happens they hired me, and now
my skills have atrophied to where I actually pay other people to fix my car
since I don't grok all the new hoses and computer thingies they have now.

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bicknell () ufp org (Leo Bicknell) writes:

> > So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during
> > my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?
>
> I said college provides those skills.  I did not say college was
> the only way to get those skills.  The converse is true as well,
> having those skills doesn't guarantee success.

Actually you said...

> > If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
> > theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
> > backgrounds that college provides.  ...

...and your use of the word "ever" is what cost me a higher score on the
nanog all-time posting stats just released here.  As of ten years ago, I've
been assured by professional educators that I am up to snuff on the things
one is supposed to learn from a masters' program.  But before that I'd been
completely self taught and there were enormous gaps in my knowledge -- yet
the code and docs I wrote are in some cases still in production use, and I
set and held records for operational uptime as what's now called a "sysadmin",
and I'm having a lot of trouble relating any of that to the presence or
absence of a degree or vendor certification.

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bicknell () ufp org (Leo Bicknell) also writes:

> > Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT 
> > community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for 
> > "Network Engineers". 
>
> I'm biased, see .sig, but having been through the process, and seen
> what other vendors (eg, Microsoft, Novell) do with their programs
> I do believe that Cisco wants their certifications to mean something.

I'm also biased, but as I told you when you and I shared a reporting chain,
I never held your CCIE against you since you'd demonstrated competence.  I
have met more CCIE's who were gibbering morons hiding their lack of skill
behind their vendor certification thatn I have met CCIE's who, like you,
probably ended up teaching the teacher a thing or two during "the process."

In 1981 and '82 I worked for Golden Gate University, and part of my job was
as a lab aid for COBOL and database students.  A more earnest crew, I have
never met.  But I can assure you that 19 out of 20 of those students were
going to come out of the program knowing exactly what was required to pass
the tests and get a job, and not one speck more.

Give me someone with the yearn to do and to know and to succeed, and I can
plug them into the right team and get a hell of a lot more work done, than
if you give me someone who has *only* the right letters after their name.

Again, statistically speaking, CCIE has more often indicated moronhood
than excellence, amongst those I have met.  I forgave you yours, but only
after watching you carefully for a couple of months to make sure that CCIE
was an irrelevant accident in your case.
-- 
Paul Vixie <vixie () eng paix net>
President, PAIX.Net Inc.