Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Frode Hegland <frode () hyperwords net>
Date: September 22, 2008 1:31:49 PM EDT
To: Russ Nelson <nelson () crynwr com>
Cc: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>, Vadim Antonov <avg () kotovnik com>,  
Ole Hegland <ole () hegland com>
Subject: Re: [IP] Re:       Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland


I happen to be in Singapore as I write this.

Politically, not such a free country maybe.

Business has pretty great freedom here but one of the largest  
corporations in the land is government owned (Temasek).

But you know what? I don't see any beggars - as I do in every large  
American city I have visited. The quality of life is fantastic, the  
food is wonderful, the people friendly, hardly any crime. Health care  
is 'socialized' here. A great blog post which you can confirm or  
criticize pice by piece if you want is this one, which I found through  
a simple search and it nicely summaries what I already know:

"It's hard to imagine a country that could provide a more valuable  
example than Singapore. The Southeast Asian city-state is widely  
regarded as a health care superstar, especially when compared to the  
United States. Life expectancy at birth in the U.S. is 78 years; in  
Singapore, it's 82 years. The Singaporean infant mortality rate is a  
mere 2.3 deaths per 1,000 live births, versus 6.4 in the U.S. As some  
have noted, these trends persist despite the fact that the U.S. has  
far more caregivers: 2.6 physicians per 1,000 people, compared with  
1.4 physicians in Singapore. The United States has 9.4 nurses per  
1,000 people; Singapore, just 4.2. Last—but certainly not least—is the  
issue of spending: the U.S. spends almost 16 percent of its GDP on  
health care, while Singapore spends a mere 3.7 percent."
http://takingnote.tcf.org/2008/07/health-care-in.html
http://snipurl.com/3sqw3

Quite similar to how I feel at home in socialist Norway.

Personally I don't think that what states control is always all that  
bad and that the 'free' enterprise is always that great.

I say that as an entrepreneur who is not fond of long forms to fill  
out or high taxes.  :-)




On 22 Sep 2008, at 15:07, Russ Nelson wrote:

> Frode Hegland writes:
> > On 19 Sep 2008, at 22:08, Russ Nelson wrote:
> > > Frode Hegland writes:
> > > > How about monopolies? With monopolies there is not much of a  
> > > > market.
>
> You decline to name a single monopoly created by free markets.  I must
> conclude that you agree that all monopolies are created by
> governments.  If a government is setting out to create a monopoly, why
> should it create a market?  I don't follow your logic here.
>
> > A counter question is simply you believe in any government  
> > legislation
> > on markets at all?
>
> Obviously SOME control of markets makes our lives better.  The trouble
> is that governments cannot restrict themselves to only passing those
> laws.  Once you let a government control markets, the political
> process will create controls which, taken in sum (and you MUST count
> them all up), make us worse off.
>
> There is a reason why so many parts of the U.S. Constitution say
> "shall make no law" or "shall not be infringed" or "No soldier shall"
> or "shall not be violated" or "No person shall be held".  It is
> because the government very quickly learns to game the agreement
> between the people and the government.
>
> If you want to have freedom, you must STRICTLY restrict what your
> government can do.  When people ask the government to do more (such as
> legislate to control markets) we must shame them into withdrawing
> their request.
>
> I'm convinced that it's practically impossible to write down an
> agreement between the people and the government.  Certainly the
> founders failed.  Instead, the people must resist their own government
> at every turn.  Keep it small, keep it simple, keep it under control,
> or it will become your master.
>
> > > > Tried to have a non-Starbucks coffee when you are out and about
> > > > recently? That monopoly (and I am a fan of Starbucks) only has two
> > > > real competitors: going to a restaurant and staying at home.
> > >
> > > Dunkin Doughnuts.  My friend George prefers their coffee.   
> > > McDonald's.
> > > I was eating there yesterday, and they offered me a FREE vanilla
> > > latte.
> >
> > Not quite coffee shops either one though. I can't see myself plugging
> > in my laptop in a McDonald's when I'm traveling to get some work  
> > done.
>
> Huh?  You can get coffee.  You said "tried to have a non-Starbucks
> coffee" and I said "yeah".  Sorry, but the only way to win this point
> is to move the goal line after I've crossed it.
>
> > I guess this answers my question above, you seem to think that there
> > should be no legislation at all for markets. This would then follow
> > that if one company screws you over your only recourse is to go to a
> > competitor. Anyway, seems we are a bit apart on this issue but I am
> > not saying that governments should completely regulate all aspects of
> > the market.
>
> Unless you can say what parts of the market a government should not
> regulate, then you are saying that governments could completely
> regulate all aspects of the market.  If you cannot name any one part
> of the economic planning of fascism you would not tolerate, can you
> say that you are opposed to fascism at all?
>
> My goal here is to get you to realize that unregulation is a slippery
> slope to prosperity and freedom.  Once you start to rule out
> regulation of one kind because any regulation makes you worse off, you
> find out that eliminating other kinds of regulation also makes you
> better and better off.  And where would you be then??  You'd have
> become a right-wing free-market capitalist, and no good (insert name
> of your social group here) would be caught dead advocating for free
> markets!
>
> Am I being too unfair?  Are you letting social pressure stop you from
> examining your beliefs?  Hey, we all do it.  None of us enjoys finding
> out that we can no longer tolerate the beliefs of our social group.
> Are you a member of a pack (right or wrong), or are you a rational
> individualist willing to argue for what is right?  I'm not going to
> judge you if you say "pack member", but you should be aware that that
> is what you're doing.
>
> --
> --my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | Software that needs
> Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | documentation is  
> software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | that needs repair.
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          |


Frode Hegland
The Hyperwords Company
59 Brewer Street, London W1F 9UN, UK
+44 121 288 6767
+44 (0) 207 3655 269
www.hyperwords.net

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