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The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf)
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:00:28 -0700
________________________________________ From: bobr () bobrosenberg phoenix az us [bobr () bobrosenberg phoenix az us] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:42 AM To: Tom Fairlie Cc: David Farber; Karl Auerbach; Brock N Meeks Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) Much agreement, Tom. However, a caveat -- I prefaced my comment by reminding all of us that all generalizations are false (including this one). So, my belief that *generally* Republicans [these days] want to use the power of Government to control people stands.I hope you will pardon this rather lengthy quote, because I believe it well confirms my position: "There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' " Barry Goldwater Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater DISCLOSURE: When Barry vacated his seat on the Phoenix City Council to take his seat in the United States Senate, Mayor Nick Udall & the remaining members of the City Council appointed my late father to occupy that chair, and when Barry ran for President, I was a volunteer in his campaign headquarters here in Phoenix. Cheers, Bob P.S. If you're in the Phoenix area on Saturday, June 21st, you can join me at 7PM at Changing Hands Bookstore where Barry Goldwater, Jr. and John Dean will be discussing their book, 'Pure Goldwater'.
Sounds like we'd get along, Bob. I share your concerns. The stronger parallel to pre-WWII Germany is the fact that most Germans didn't understand what was utlimately going to happen. They accepted each repressive measure over a long period of time because it didn't affect them direction--only someone *else*. Our history books paint Germany as a Nazi state populated with fascist mystics bent on world domination. Closer to the truth is that they were an educated country experiencing economic devastation and political turmoil and decided (indirectly) to go along to get along. We should really learn a lesson from that. While we don't have a Hitler replica around, we have many wannabes on radio and in print, a subculture of hatred and bigotry that facilitates repression, and an apathetic citzenry that sadly ignores--or simply doesn't get--what's going on. Regarding your control comment. I still don't believe that the Republicans' aim is to control society. I honestly think that the powers behind the Republican national leadership (and, to a lesser extent, behind the Democrats) use these wedge issues to distract us from other, more important things. Just listen to any sort of public debate around you and 90% of what you hear is right vs. left, conservatives vs. liberals, and us vs. them. It's really appalling that so many of us have fallen into this false debate. It's should really be more about the honest or innocent vs. the corrupt and the comprimised. Remember that our revolutionary ancestors (the real fighters, not the politicians we are taught about) were much more likely to storm the colonial landholders (the "pre-Americans" who profited from slavery and indentured servitude) than they were the British. It is a testament to our political forefathers brilliance that they were able to turn this resentment towards England. We could use someone today who would be effective turning the table the other way. (Not that I recommend rakes and torches, but you get my drift. ;-) Tom Fairlie ----- Original Message ----- From: <bobr () bobrosenberg phoenix az us> To: "Tom Fairlie" <tfairlie () frontiernet net> Cc: "David Farber" <dave () farber net>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl () cavebear com>; "Brock N Meeks" <bmeeks () cox net> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf)"I agree except for the fact that you have to distinguish between Republicans and Democrats as a voting bloc and their party leadership." Total agreement. "The Republicans on the other hand, are not so much for control of the people...." Uh, er, Hmm, civil rights? rights for detainees at Gitmo <YAY for the Supremes decision this morning!>, as an example: I firmly believe it's none of my business who you go to bed with -- It's none of my business if you even go to bed with anybody -- and, it's none of the Big Gummint's business either. Happy Anniversary to the Lovings' (41 years ago today) decision by a previous set of Supremes. So, if Caucasians may marry Blacks, what's the big deal about homosexuals? The sorry spectacle, a few years ago, of Colin Powell using the same Jim Crow language that was used for too long against Blacks in the Military against Homosexuals in the Military disgusted me. Interesting mention of Hitler: Earlier this morning, I was reading some quotes of Kurt Vonnegut and came across, "So you're a Christian - so was Adolph Hitler". If one reads & compares the Laws enacted between 1928 and 1933 in enlightened Germany with the Laws enacted in this Country since September of 2001, I find that one is then required to change one's underwear. On that happy note, Cheers, Bob -- Bob Rosenberg P.O. Box 33023 Phoenix, AZ 85067-3023 Mobile: 602-206-2856 LandLine: 602-274-3012 bob () bobrosenberg phoenix az us ************** "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear." -- President Harry S. Truman, message to Congress, August 8, 1950 "Civil government cannot let any group ride roughshod over others simply because their consciences tell them to do so." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson While an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Jackson was appointed Chief United States Prosecutor at the International War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg, Germany.I agree except for the fact that you have to distinguish between Republicans and Democrats as a voting bloc and their party leadership. Democrats at the top of the food chain are historically just as greedy and self-serving as any Republican, it's just that their constituents are often working- or middle-class people that want basic rights and freedoms (what we now call being "liberal"). The Republicans on the other hand, are not so much for control of the people as they are for control of their gravy train. The people are just useful cogs in the machinery. So if the CEO makes it a point to "control cogs," then I'd say you're correct. Also keep in mind that Republicans no longer stand for any uniform principle from a political perspective. Their long-term strategy since Goldwater has been to attract southern conservatives (the "Reagan Democrats") into their fold. Although their plan worked, their platform now resembles Hitler's in so many ways (strong economic controls PLUS a strong, anti-liberal social policy). (BTW, that comparison was political, not emotional; Americans who object to any mention of Hitler should read more.) Take care. Tom Fairlie ----- Original Message ----- From: <bobr () bobrosenberg phoenix az us> To: "David Farber" <dave () farber net> Cc: "Tom Fairlie" <tfairlie () frontiernet net>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl () cavebear com>; "Brock N Meeks" <bmeeks () cox net> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf)Hi Dave, Tom, Karl & Brock Recognizing that all generalizations are false (including this one), I have come to believe that, in general, Democrats want to use the power of Government to help people while Republicans want to use the power of Government to control people. Having been one of the latter and converted to one of the former, perhaps I am not an impartial witness, nonetheless.... However, what I see coming ain't no way to run an internet! Oh wait! We could just put TSA in charge of the internet. Yeah, that will fix it. Cheers, Bob -- Bob Rosenberg P.O. Box 33023 Phoenix, AZ 85067-3023 Mobile: 602-206-2856 LandLine: 602-274-3012 bob () bobrosenberg phoenix az us ************** "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear." -- President Harry S. Truman, message to Congress, August 8, 1950________________________________________ From: Tom Fairlie [tfairlie () frontiernet net] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:55 PM To: David Farber Cc: Brock N. Meeks; karl () cavebear com Subject: Re: [IP] Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) One should always be wary when one of the four horses of the Internet apocalypse are trotted out (i.e., child porn, terrorism, drug trafficking, and any sort of generic, mob-related crime such as money laundering). Policies related to these memes aren't merely the remnants of a failed strategy or lazy legislation; they are frequently used to hide even more nefarious activities that the private (and often, governmental) entities really want passed. As always, follow the money (or see what's being hidden), and you will find out why so many people want to shut the Internet down, regulate it, or otherwise put it under strict control and close scrutiny. A free, public vehicle for communication is anathema to the goals of the people ultimately behind these policies. Lazy, ignorant politicians are just useful idiots. Tom Fairlie PS, like Brock, I have children, and the last thing I want to see is a terrible crime that directly affects them. However, expecting our government to effectively resolve any of these issues with its current trajectory is probably less useful than simple prayer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Farber" <dave () farber net> To: "ip" <ip () v2 listbox com> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:45 PM Subject: [IP] Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) ________________________________________ From: Karl Auerbach [karl () cavebear com] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:22 PM To: David Farber Cc: bmeeks () cox net Subject: Re: [IP] The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber wrote:________________________________________ From: Brock N Meeks [bmeeks () cox net]First, I want to know who anointed the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children as judge and jury of what constitutes a child porn Web site?Welcome to the 21st Century world of private governance - plenary power in private hands: No oversight, no review, and often exempt from taxes and anti-trust laws. It is a natural step from the Reagan/Thatcher belief that the powers of government are best exercised without public oversight by private actors. This National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is one example, Blackwater is another. One of the reasons that I rail so much about ICANN is that it is also one of these things that have power of government exercised via a private body. The big fights in western Europe and N. America of the latter 18th and early 19th centuries were concerned with redressing and constraining outrageous abuses of national power - one of the most extreme examples being the France of Louis XIV. Unfortunately we are not advancing. Instead we are going retrograde. We are abandoning the idea bodies of limited government exercising limited powers that are derived from the citizenry. We seem to be moving back to an era more suggestive of feudal powers vested in corporate dukes and NGO nobles. We are in an era in which power is being concentrated rather than diffused. And that concentration is occurring with the greatest rapidity into bodies that are the least accountable to the public. And this acceptance of concentration is slopping over into other areas. For instance it really bothers me that not one of the US Presidential candidates as repudiated Pres. Bush's "unitary executive" grab for neo-royal power. --karl-- ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
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- The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 10)
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- Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 10)
- Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 11)
- Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 11)
- Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 12)
- The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 13)
- Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf) David Farber (Jun 13)