Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers

["Tomas L. Byrnes" <tomb () byrneit net>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Kibler [mailto:Jon.Kibler () aset com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:09 AM
> To: Tomas L. Byrnes
> Cc: nick () virus-l demon co uk; funsec () linuxbox org
> Subject: Re: [funsec] Rage against spammers and telemarketers
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
> > IE: That a Democratic Republic has a better chance of averting
> > catastrophe than an Oligarchy.
> >
> > History tends to prove my point.
>
>
> On the other hand, great oligarchies, such as the Roman Catholic
Church,
> have
> lasted for at least 1,500 years -- and some would argue that its reach
> has been
> nearly the full 2 millennia of its existence.
[TLB:] 
If you think the system of government's survival is the measure of
avoiding catastrophe, then I guess you are right. MY measure of
catastrophe is what happens to the people who live under that system of
government. The average Roman or Gallo-Roman was far better off than the
subjects of the Holy Roman Empire from c 300AD until the Enlightenment,
IMO. 

> From my viewpoint, the Roman Catholic Church is an excellent example of
an oligarchy that CAUSED multiple disasters. The largest, in my mind,
was the extended retreat from science and knowledge caused by the
church's persecution of scientists, and the attendant plagues, famines,
and general hellish living conditions of most Europeans from the fall of
Rome until well after the Enlightenment. I'm sure the Aztecs, Toltecs,
and the myriad other cultures destroyed in the name of Christ would also
have something to say about the Church. There's also that burning of the
library @ Alexandria, the burning of thousands at the stake, and the
nearly six centuries of war in Europe that resulted from people trying
to escape the hammerlock of Rome once the Reformation started. I'm sure
Gadi and the Jews in general would have something to say about their
treatment by the Roman Catholic Church from the fall of Rome until after
WWII (Pope JPII felt badly enough about it that he apologized for it
from the main altar of St. Peter's in 2000).  

A pretty good argument can be made that WWII was, in effect, the last of
the wars between the Protestants (UK and USA) and the Catholics (Germany
and Italy). Its dress rehearsal was certainly the church versus
secularism (Spanish Civil War).

In the end, the Catholic church has become a shadow of its former self,
precisely because, as is the case with all Oligarchies, it was too
inflexible and unable to change to meet new challenges.

My point is that free markets of ideas and goods, acted on by free
people, are much better at adapting to, and coping with, difficult
circumstances; than oligarchies of "Philosopher Princes". I think
Plato's "Republic" is the worst meme our society has, as it advances a
system of government that, like Communism, completely disregards basic
human nature, which inevitably means that the elite who run things
become corrupt and despotic, and often incompetent and isolated from
reality as well.

Just because I may draw different conclusions from History than you do,
doesn't mean that I don't know it. 

I am a product of 14 years (yes, that means 2 years of University as
well) of Catholic education. Subsequently, when I was at Northeastern
studying engineering and in ROTC, I aced Military history. When my wife
and I travel in Italy, I can read all the inscriptions, thanks to 6
years of Latin, to include Roman History. When I lived in France (I
speak the language fluently), I made a point of visiting as much of that
country's rich trove of museums, castles, and Cathedrals as I could.
When I was in the US Army, during the long periods of boredom we face on
our way to the moments of pure chaos and terror, I read mostly history,
especially biographies of great actors in history. I can highly
recommend anything by William Manchester, especially his 2 part Bio of
Winston Churchill. 

WRT Longevity of representative government I'd point out that Rome was a
Republic after Athens. I'm sure there are some in the UK who would say
that the UK effectively became a parliamentary democracy, albeit with
circumscribed rights and a class system, with the Commonwealth
(Cromwell) and the limitation of Crown power after the restoration.
Certainly, the English have a right to claim that their government has
lasted from William the Conqueror until the present day, and they could
make claim that it predates that. 

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