Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?

["Alex Eckelberry" <AlexE () sunbelt-software com>]

> Second, I don't have time to write a complete essay discussing the subject...
 
You've already written what appears to be several thousand words on the subject. 
 
The problem is that National ID Cards don't solve any problem, except to clamp down on illegal immigration.  In the 
process, we lose one more bit of precious freedom in an age when we've been hoisting freedoms into a big trash 
dumpster, yet Europeans keep telling us we're stupid for caring about it -- because they have National ID Cards and 
it's great!  (Yet the great irony is that Europeans come to the states and tell me how much more free America is 
compared to their own countries.)  
 
Immigration, arguably, is not a problem.  An examination of history shows that as countries become more prosperous, a 
rising middle (and upper class) become less and less interested in menial labor.  Talk to a contractor:  He'll tell you 
that the American's aren't applying for the construction jobs.  The immigrants are.  
 
But here's what's really scary -- we've also lost talent on the -top- end of the scale.  We're not getting the 
engineers and programmers we need to keep creating all these new technologies.  I know, I run a software company and 
have practically drained the local market of talent.  Yet I have developers overseas that would love to work for us. 
Good luck, because our fear and paranoia about terrorism has made the process extraordinarily difficult (incidentally, 
90% of my R&D is in the US -- I have little interest in the offshore model).  
 
This country has become is so terrified and fearful that it's lost its sense of pragmatism.  Yes, I'm a nutcase 
American who doesn't want damned ID cards, cameras on every block and random checkpoints when I take my car for an 
afternoon drive.  What age do we live in when we take for granted that we have to live in the dark just to be safe?  
What kind of life is that?  And what tradeoff are we giving for "safety"?
 
Show me something that really _does_ make life safer and better, and I'll rally behind it.  But not this nonsense. 
 
Alex
 



________________________________

From: C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:38 PM
To: Randy Abrams
Cc: privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?


This was simply an example showing counterfeiters will have a lot of challenges
to overcome when it comes to digital identification. There are a lot of things that
can be done and the best solution will be a blend of several technologies. 

This was a simple example to counter your simple reasoning in the previous
email about counterfeiters. By now means I intended to talk about a perfect
solution... First of all it's not my job... I got enough to worry about. 
Second, I don't have time to write a complete essay discussing the subject...



On 5/18/07, Randy Abrams < abrams () eset com <mailto:abrams () eset com> > wrote: 


        > Please go read up on asymmetric encryption, PKI, certificates, CAs, etc. Then come 
        > back and tell me how you are going to counterfeit Microsoft website's certificate...
        
        I am reminded of a quote in, off all things, a book on robotics that went something to the effect of "if you 
only see one solution you probably don't understand the problem." 
        
        If I want to counterfeit Microsoft's website certificate then I have an exceptionally difficult task, however 
if that is what I am trying to do then I am probably going after something entirely different and there will be a 
variety of approaches that will work. 
        
        Not the web site certificate, but when I worked at Microsoft there were two Microsoft digital certificates 
issued by Verisign to people who did not work for Microsoft... Hence the impetus to turn on certificate revocation in 
IE. 
        
        As for freedom (and civil liberties) being an illusion, that's not exactly true. There are some remnants left 
that are worth fighting for... They just don't happen to be in Iraq.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Randy 
        
        
        ________________________________
        
                From: C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
                Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 6:12 PM
                To: Randy Abrams
                Cc: Fergie; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
                Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
        
        
                At least here you tried to provide some reasoning behind your statement... That's progress :-) 
        
                Once again, I'd like to revisit the scenario with money. Please tell me are most bills counterfeit?
                Yes, there's a problem with people counterfeiting money, but it's not an epidemic. And it's actually 
                easy to counterfeit our money... Their protection mechanisms are pathetic :-)
                If we have really good id cards. It will be much harder to counterfeit them. It's not about
                impossibility... it's about reducing the possibility. Besides... even if the crooks will 
                manage to counterfeit the cards to make them visually similar there will still be a matter
                of having to deal with digital fingerprints, etc. That won't be that easy to counter fit.
                Please go read up on asymmetric encryption, PKI, certificates, CAs, etc. Then come 
                back and tell me how you are going to counterfeit Microsoft website's certificate...
        
                As for freedom... I got news for you. There's no such thing. Especially in the US.
                It's an illusion... And it's been gone for many many years. I have lived in other countries, 
                so I can share my first hand experience that a lot of times you have much more freedom
                elsewhere...
        
                And another thing about freedom... it's a relative concept. For example, the drivers in Germany 
                are fighting the Green Party that wants to impose a 120km (about 75 miles) speed limit.
                The German drivers are saying that it's their right... a free man should be able to go as
                fast as he wants from point A to point B. 
        
                Speaking of driving... where's this freedom thingie you are referring to... when you are forced
                by law to wear a seatbelt as if the government owned your body and soul...
        
        
                On 5/18/07, Randy Abrams < abrams () eset com > wrote:
        
                        And yet it will not accomplish either. It will add a product line to the black market. 
Criminals with funding will buy the technology to beat the ID card, and will also sell excellent counterfeits on the 
black market, making it harder to discover an illegal alien. For the law abiding American it will only facilitate 
government tracking. 
        
                        It's simply a proposal that no American who values freedom at all could accept as anything less 
than an assault on the rights and freedoms of the innocent.
        
                        Cheers,
        
                        Randy
        
        
                        ________________________________
        
                                From: C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
                                Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:54 PM 
                                To: Fergie
                                Cc: privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
                                Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? 
        
        
                                You are right. I didn't word it correctly. I meant to say that
                                I talked about those two issues. Yes, one of the main benefits
                                behind introducing National ID is to have better tools 
                                in preventing what you mentioned (the whole pilot license thing).
                                I agree that this should really be about that and less about
                                controlling illegals. It's just that website with the original article 
                                tried to get immigration into the mix. I just had to say something about that...
        
        
        
                                On 5/18/07, Fergie <fergdawg () netzero net > wrote:
        
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                                        - -- "C Q" < kyle.c.quest () gmail com <mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com> > 
wrote:
        
                                        >There are two issues here:
                                        >1. National ID and its benefits
                                        >2. Illegal aliens and their impact on the lives of the people who live in 
                                        >the US.
                                        >
        
                                        Actually, no.
        
                                        Number 2 should be "Prohibiting terrorists from obtaining pilot's 
                                        licenses."
        
                                        It is nothing less than disingenuous to color this debate on a
                                        National ID card as an illegal immigration control issue. 
        
                                        After 11 September 2001, the _entire_ impetus for a National ID
                                        card (née Real ID) was to put into a place a mechanism to identify
                                        people who weren't supposed to be here -- namely terrorists. 
        
                                        - - ferg
        
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                                        --
                                        "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
                                        Engineering Architecture for the Internet
                                        fergdawg(at)netzero.net
                                        ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        




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