Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing
From: Justin Klein Keane <justin () madirish net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:34:45 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, My point about Maslow had to do with self actualization as a motivating factor. Freud also called used the super ego. It was meant to be demonstrative rather than illustrative, however. I believe there are people out there motivated by more than power or sexual fulfillment (things like duty, honor, or morality). The problem here is that we are both arguing from anecdotal evidence. I observe what I observe and you observe what you observe. The reason we differ is because there is no common metric, therefore there's no way for us to convince one another of the correctness of our analysis. You can call me naive and I can call you jaded, and the issue remains unsettled. I think the salient point isn't who is right, but how we could go about collecting evidence to support our assertions. Cheers, Justin C. Klein Keane http://www.MadIrish.net On 7/10/12 3:58 PM, Thor (Hammer of God) wrote:
"Moral obligation" to disclosing bugs? Really? The statement wasn't about what happens when there is disclosure or the effect it has - the statement was in regard to the purpose one does the research and subsequent disclosure in the first place. It is, quite simply, to be recognized. I didn't say anything was "wrong" with that, I was just stating that it "is." People do not disclose their research to make the world a better place. They do it for recognition or for money. One may argue they are related. Are you telling me that these people intentionally begin researching some random product because they have some duty to ensure a fix is produced? If you think that, you are quite naïve. People certainly report bugs anonymously, but those are bugs they happen upon, not those they set out to find. Just look at how many bugs are released anonymously. Statistically none. You paint the picture as if people volunteer hours upon hours of research into any random product to find a bug so that they can "insure" a fix is produced as it they have some duty to do so. Nuts, man. Oh, and your reference to Maslow actually makes my point. The most basic need is "sex" (getting laid). The next most basic need is "employment" (getting paid). The next tier is "sexual intimacy" (getting laid), the neigh is "achievement" (getting paid) and finally the "acceptance of facts" that everything you do is to get paid or get laid. But as Val said, this thread has about run its course, and there's not been much new material on the subject (even though Григорий Братислава has provided needed entertainment). On 7/10/12 9:15 AM, "Justin Klein Keane" <justin () madirish net> wrote: Hello, I feel compelled to point out that disclosing a bug *is* contributing. It requires a lot of time and effort to find a bug, which is a contribution to the target software, even if only seen as free quality assurance work. Disclosure is undeniably inconvenient for vendors, but it is demonstrably one of the surest ways to ensure a fix is developed. Security researchers arguably have as much responsibility to end users as to vendors. If a researcher finds a bug, unless they believe they are the best person in the world at what they do, they must conclude black hats have access to the bug. Disclosing the bug is the lowest resistance way for a researcher to concurrently inform the user base and provide impetus for the vendor to fix the issue. The proposition that disclosure is purely selfish ego stroking ignores the viewpoint that disclosure is a moral obligation, which is just as valid. Maslow's hierarchy of needs clearly illustrates that not everyone is motivated by getting paid or getting laid. Justin C. Klein Keane http://www.MadIrish.net On 7/10/12 11:42 AM, Mikhail A. Utin wrote:Hello, I completely agree with Thor. We have to do something for free. We have to contribute, not just use. Whoever and whatever. Examples: - This list is ran for free (hardware, software, time, energy are used for) and giving us a chance to communicate - The most of us use Linux, whichever flavor you prefer. The most of it is free time contribution. Somebody pays for that, but we use. It is nice to be paid for something, but consider the alternative. Otherwise our communications will die and we do not have an OS for a fun or profit. Mikhail Utin -----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:00 AM To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk Subject: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11 ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:24:51 +0000 From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor () hammerofgod com> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] How much time is appropriate for fixing a bug? To: Georgi Guninski <guninski () guninski com>, Stefan Kanthak <stefan.kanthak () nexgo de> Cc: "full-disclosure () lists grok org uk" <full-disclosure () lists grok org uk> Message-ID: <CC205E3D.3561%thor () hammerofgod com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I'm not contradicting myself at all - in fact, *you* are the exact type of person I'm talking about. You couldn't give a rat's ass about the industry or anyone but yourself. Nothing you have ever done has been "valuable" to anyone other than you; it has been completely self-serving egotistical bullshit. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email communication and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information for the use of the designated recipients named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, disclosure, dissemination, distribution or copying of it or its contents is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender immediately or by telephone at (617) 426-0600 and destroy all copies of this communication and any attachments. For further information regarding Commonwealth Care Alliance's privacy policy, please visit our Internet web site at http://www.commonwealthcare.org. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. 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Current thread:
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing, (continued)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 10)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Gary E. Miller (Jul 10)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 10)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Gary E. Miller (Jul 10)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Gary E. Miller (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Jeffrey Walton (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Gary E. Miller (Jul 11)
- Re: How much time is appropriate for fixing Justin Klein Keane (Jul 10)
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- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 10)
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- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 10)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing rancor (Jul 10)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing valdis . kletnieks (Jul 10)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 10)
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- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Derek Belrose (Jul 11)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Thor (Hammer of God) (Jul 10)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 89, Issue 11: ] How much time is appropriate for fixing Григорий Братислава (Jul 11)