Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Why is IRC still around?
From: Bart.Lansing () kohls com
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:01:31 -0600
Vord, Let's extend your logic a bit... Given your diatribe, one can easily make the following assertion and assume your full support: {It is clear that the internet...being composed of largely uncontrollable, independent nodes...may easily be subverted for uses that are counter to the greater good of society. Therefore, as alternate means of communications and conducting legitmate business are in fact available, the internet will be closed until further notice. Please feel free to create a new internet which cannot be subverted or otherwise used in any manner which does not conform to the societal conventions we have chosen to enforce. } There is no communications channel which can not be subverted in some way or another, be it digital, analog, or paper. Your arguements/pontifications below, if carried to their logical conclusion, suggest that it would be approriate to consider doing away with all of them due to the potential which exists for abuse/misuse. How about a little focus on the people who are responsible, instead...you know, encouraging personal responsibility...that sort of thing? In any society, whether meat-based or bit-based, freedom does indeed have the side-effect of making it harder to prevent bad people from doing bad things. Nonetheless, I'll gladly take the headaches of dealing with bad people and bad things while enjoying the relative freedoms I have. full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com wrote on 11/20/2004 02:03:00 AM:
ive never seen so many repetitive and knee-jerk reactions to one [potentially baseless] post in all my years of watching FD [the obvious exceptions being the OT political nonsense occurring here, especially as of late] as witnessed during my reading of this thread. but moving right along ... :D my take is that Danny merely suggests burning the security candle at both ends. it is complete nonsense to approve of ANYTHING simply because it has some, or even a vast lot, of legitimate users/uses. some things are just not worth defending or perpetuating, and perhaps IRC is one of them? [this is his question]. and for the record, "they would move to another resource" is not a coherent argument against his position [his question, rather] concerning the elimination of a problem-child medium. perhaps the cost to society via the spread piracy and virii [more importantly the altter] isnt worth the measly gain IRC affords its legitimate users? [well?] it IS incoherent, however, to argue that IRC (1) is the kiddiots means of choice for controlling his worms because it is the easiest or most efficient way to do so, while also contending (2) that an IRC sunset would not cause the immediate dissappearance of substansial internet-wide problems. making it harder MAKES IT HARDER and must therefore to some degree reduce the probability of abuse. therefore the gain afforded to legitimate users by this medium should be weighted against the direct affect its eradication would have on REAL problems -- and, clearly, no one here is qualified to make this judgement, else they would have offered such proof in immediate response to the original post as opposed to blabbing incessantly about incredibly obvious bullshit. the only potentially useful point anyone has made [not that it wasnt obvious] concerns the difficulty in removing the medium ... but this is irrelavent, of course, since it is more likely that the security community would suggest [and perhaps assist in the developement of] a replacement [most importantly] to the larger IRC networks. if shooting people is evil, OBVIOUSLY guns are flawed, but only insofar as people are capable of abusing them, willing to abuse them, and effective in their attempts at doing so. so to burn the candle at both ends you have to fight the spread of trojans and virii by fixing the holes they exploit and providing detection services, while also continually analyzing and evolving the structure on which it all rests. ie, the internet at its core... protocols, etc. im sure the original ford model-T had plenty of legitimate users who didnt drive drunk or generally cause mayhem ... i dont see it around anymore though ... hmm, i wonder if that correlates directly to the increased safety of automobiles ... hmm hmm, indeed. </sardonicism> the issue is certainly not at all as cut and dry as most of you have made it out to be. --vord #hackphreak/undernet invulnerable to the accidents of people and books. On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:08:33 -0000, Darren Wolfe <darren () thecosmicgerbil com> wrote:I have never replied to anything on this list (I read it to keep up to
date
on vulnerabilities, but im not really qualified to contribute
anything) but
this particular message has peaked my interest. 1. Agreed, by using flaws in IE they then go on to subvert mirc into spamming people. 2. They do. 3. A tremendous amount :) 4. This is only because IRC provides the perfect medium in which to
control
those zombies (a single message from one person is immediately sent to everyone in the channel at the same time). If a better medium was
available,
they'd use that. IRC is as close to a real time group conversation as you can get that doesn't used closed protocols. It's fast, simple and used by an
enormous
number of people - particuarly those who play online games, and for
open
source projects (#gentoo on freenode regularly has over 900 people in
it).
In answer to your final question - IRC is very useful for quick conversations in real time with groups of people. Sure there are other things - usenet, web based forums, email based mailing lists, IM
networks
etc but none have that group feeling as much as IRC. It's problem is twofold - firstly, mirc (the most popular client) has
a
number of flaws that make it easy to steal peoples "auth passwords".
But
these are not automated! The user must be tricked into typing some
commands
to set the exploit in motion. This is also the second problem - a link may be mentioned in a channel
and
people will click on it - from there, if your browser is vulnerable,
you can
be hit by any number of trojans. There was a winamp trojan going
about a
few months ago (which I reported and is now fixed - go me :D ) which involved clicking a link in irc that opened winamp through a file association that exploited a security flaw that installed a script for
mirc
that spammed the same link to everyone in the channel. Like any other medium, it is a combination of a lack of knowledge by
the
users and exploits/vulnerabilities in software, the only difference,
is that
on IRC it tends to spread quickly because of its real time nature. So in conclusion, no, IRC should not be killed off, mirc's scripting vulnerabilities should be closed in some way, and vulnerabilities in
other
software should continue to be discovered and fixed. -----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com [mailto:full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com] On Behalf Of Danny Sent: 19 November 2004 17:40 To: Mailing List - Full-Disclosure Subject: [Full-disclosure] Why is IRC still around? Well, it sure does help the anti-virus (anti-malware) and security consulting business, but besides that... is it not safe to say that: 1) A hell of a lot of viruses/worms/trojans use IRC to wreck further
havoc?
2) A considerable amount of "script kiddies" originate and grow
through IRC?
3) A wee bit of software piracy occurs? 4) That many organized DoS attacks through PC zombies are initiated
through
IRC? 5) The anonymity of the whole thing helps to foster all the illegal
and
malicious activity that occurs? The list goes on and on... Sorry to offend those that use IRC legitimately (LOL - find something
else
to chat with your buddies), but why the hell are we not pushing to
sunset
IRC? What would IT be like today without IRC (or the like)? Am I
narrowminded to
say that it would be a much safer place? ...D _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html_______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Current thread:
- Re: Why is IRC still around?, (continued)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? Michael Rutledge (Nov 19)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 19)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? (n3td3v is a troll) Steve R (Nov 20)
- Re: Re: Why is IRC still around? (n3td3v is a troll) n3td3v (Nov 21)
- Re: Re: Why is IRC still around? ntx0f (Nov 21)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 19)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? Michael Rutledge (Nov 19)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 20)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? james edwards (Nov 21)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 21)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? Bart . Lansing (Nov 22)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 22)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 22)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 22)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 23)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? Valdis . Kletnieks (Nov 23)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 23)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 24)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 24)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? n3td3v (Nov 25)
- Re: Why is IRC still around? vord (Nov 26)