Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: A rather newbie question
From: David Hane <dlhane () sbcglobal net>
Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:20:12 -0700
Bart, I hope no one thinks I said those things! The Dave in question is "dk dk () pwarchitects com" not me, Dave Hane. Too many Dave's on this thread :-) On Tuesday 04 May 2004 12:04, Bart.Lansing () kohls com wrote:
Dave...et al... full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com wrote on 05/03/2004 05:28:43 PM:Harlan Carvey wrote:Yes, I can agree with that...I do get the point. But who are the users? Say you're an admin at a law firm...if the users are supposed to be security-conscious (face it, a great many admins lack even the most rudimentary security awareness), then shouldn't the admins be required to have a law degree, also? How about a hospital...shouldn't each admin then have to have a medical degree?SNIPS HERE AND THERE, but DAVE STARTS IN HERE WITH:I admin a small Architectural Firm with a mix of OS's, mailservers, webservers, specialized applications, workstations, laptops, plotters, printers... etc... Basically anything that has electrons move through it I am expected tohaveknowledge of or at least have the number to someone who does (I don't do Copiers). I am also to create and manage the electronic document standards for the CAD applications and electronic document submittal, research new means and methods, etc, etc, on and on. Point of my rambling here is: When I am not doing one of the above (My primary job description) I am fully expected to fill in for Architectural Design and do the job of a 1st or 2nd year Architectural Intern that has a 4yeardegree in Architecture. I do all of this, for less than 30k yr andneitherposses a Degree in any of the Computer Sciences nor in any of the Architecture fields. (And for bonus points, if you carefully read my sentances you will see that I do not possess a Degree in English either! :) ) I am never given time to research or practice the Architecture side of my job, but I am expected to do it to a degree FAR greater than most admins ask the users to educate themselves about "The Computer" or "Windows" when they have spare time. I would love to trade shoes with them for a week and see how we'd bothfare. Dave, I have to tell you that I'll bet you are in a very small minority here, vis a vis being expected to both IT and business contribute...and you are being rather seriously mistreated financially, by the way.I agree that harmless joking is fine...but I've seen instances in which that harmless joking became part of the admin's vocabulary, even in front of those same users.Well I think this may come from the frustrations of the modern American Business outlook that the "Computer" is nothing but a big typewriter glued to a Fax machine that produces money when the right keys are pressed And perhaps in part because most "Admin's" are expected to fill many more shoes than the co-workers they support. So I've called my users, lusers for years to ease the frustrations that I must endure daily in slowly repeating attachment mantra's, how to sync yourpalm,how to change your background, why the "internet" is broke on their laptop (hint: plug in the blue cable Boss).... If *I* handled myself in an equal but opposite manner in regards to my assumed "Architecture responcibilities", I'd be out of a job.Going to go back here, based on your being in the minority, and say simply that it ain't your job to perform brain surgery, defend someone in a trial, or even tune up the chevy....and it ain't their job to know any more than they have to to make the "tool" that their PC really is do what they need it to do. And...since I manage close to 5000 desktops/users...as well as the CIRT that handles this corporate environment...trust me that my potential for frustration and aggravation exceeds yours by factors. Do we have moments around here where we would like to throttle someone? Of course. Do we insult/belittle them? Of course....NOT. Hey...Dave...incoming clue: THESE PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY REASON YOU HAVE A JOB. NO END USERS, NO COMPUTER INDUSTRY...AT ALL...ANYWHERE. If you can't deal with the fact that they do not, as a rule, "get it" about infosec...about netiquette, about the routine care and feeding of today's PCs...and that they don't want to have to "get it"...you may want to think about a place in the industry that does not involve end-user interraction. Bearing in mind of course, that that job too is dependent on your "Lusers".I just want that door to swing BOTH ways. Until then, they are the Lusers and I am the Long Haired Freak giving up another Sunday evening tweaking the Bayesian filter so sweet Edna over in Accounting can get her Amway newsletter.And as long as you keep denigrating the people who are the reason you get to pay your rent and eat...that's probably all you'll ever be.But Edna ain't so sweet when late is my timesheet, or even incomplete. :) -- DaveBut Edna gets you paid, and I'm betting the check is on time or you are bitching about it. Cheers Bart CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This is a transmission from Kohl's Department Stores, Inc. and may contain information which is confidential and proprietary. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution or use of the contents of this message is expressly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at 262-703-7000. 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Current thread:
- RE: A rather newbie question, (continued)
- RE: A rather newbie question Schmidt, Michael R. (May 03)
- RE: A rather newbie question Harlan Carvey (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question David Hane (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question Harlan Carvey (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question Ethan Vaughn (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question David Hane (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question Valdis . Kletnieks (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question madsaxon (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question dk (May 03)
- Re: A rather newbie question Bart . Lansing (May 04)
- Re: A rather newbie question David Hane (May 04)
- RE: A rather newbie question Harlan Carvey (May 03)
- RE: A rather newbie question Schmidt, Michael R. (May 03)