Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again )
From: Brett Hutley <brett () hutley net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:57:36 +1000
Along these lines, if the C programming language had a proper string data type from day one, buffer overflows would be much less common today.
Ha! Yeah right - and how would your operating system perform doing boundary checks on every string operation??? Thus trumpeted Mike Fratto on Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 12:55:51PM -0400
Not to get into a religious argument over this, but if programmers did proper data scrubbing and bounds checking regardless of the language, there wouldn't be much of a problem either. Granted, I am not uber programmer (I have hacked together proggies of a couple of thousand lines for my own use and I am sure there were lots of problems in them) but even being self taught, I learned to do data scrubbing and bounds checking just for reliability. I have to think it is taught in programming 101.
Yeah, well I AM a professional programmer - have been for over 15 years. I always get a bit riled when I see people who have only coded up "Hello World" applications say this kind of thing (and there seem to be a lot of them involved in security). Real world programs are big complex beasties, potentially involving threads, sockets, complex GUI elements and the like. Try looking through 100k lines of code in a complex multi-threaded app that you know segfaults randomly when running on multi-processor machines to find the unprotected counter (an atomic operation on one processor, but not on two). The program I am working on at the moment is fully distributed because it needs to process years of data, the correlation matrices are encoded in eigenvectors because it's the only way we can fit them in memory, we have large gigabyte-sized files that are chunked into memory on demand and the processing is distributed among 8 different types of servers to try and max out processors, hard drive and network throughput. I KNOW that there are security problems in there, although most of the programmers on the project are extremely experienced, and we bounds check the code religously. To take one example; the socket connections pass the objects as an unprotected binary data stream. If we encrypted the stream we wouldn't be able to get the throughput. To take another example; we don't use the C++ std::string class - even though it's "a proper string data type" - why? because the overhead of the heap allocations on string construction make the program too slow. As a result we have to deal with a far greater likelyhood of a buffer overflow. But this is the real world! And the nature of coding real world applications is that we have to make compromises. Understanding the techniques that security folks use to compromise programs is important. But given that 60-80% of large programming projects are going to fail BEFORE the question of poor security even comes up, I'll take a programmer with a proven track record of getting a program written even if they haven't had any security training (and I can't get enough of those programmers so if you know any, let me know and I'll hire them). Cheers, Brett -- Brett Hutley [MAppFin,CISSP,SANS GCIH] mailto:brett () hutley net http://hutley.net/brett I'll get a bunch of monkeys, dress 'em up, and make 'em reenact the Civil War! Heh, heh, heh! -- Homer Simpson Homer the Great _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Current thread:
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ), (continued)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Thilo Schulz (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Andrew Griffiths (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Georgi Guninski (Jul 01)
- RE: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Schmehl, Paul L (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) KF (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) ATD (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) madsaxon (Jul 01)
- RE: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Richard M. Smith (Jul 01)
- RE: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Mike Fratto (Jul 01)
- RE: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Cesar (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Brett Hutley (Jul 02)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) KF (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Peter van den Heuvel (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Thilo Schulz (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) mattmurphy () kc rr com (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Ron DuFresne (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) KF (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Ron DuFresne (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) dhtml (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Kristian Hermansen (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) KF (Jul 01)
- RE: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Schmehl, Paul L (Jul 01)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Shawn McMahon (Jul 02)
- Re: Microsoft Cries Wolf ( again ) Kristian Hermansen (Jul 06)