Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER
From: Stephen Clowater <steve () stevesworld hopto org>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:22:27 -0300
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for the usless post....I think we all already knew what I am about to say....but some of this stuff is just so blatently stupidly wrong...it needs to be addressed. My apoligies for the spelling :)
Hackers, software companies feud over disclosure of weaknesses By Doug Bedell The Dallas Morning News As Muhammad Faisal Rauf Danka recalls it, he tried 10 times to call a software maker about a devastating security flaw in one of its most popular programs. "It is so simple it is funny," the Pakistani researcher says. But nothing happened. Then he took his findings to a global audience a worldwide mailing list devoted to exposing and exploring software bugs. Vindication came swiftly: Within days, Microsoft acknowledged that 200 million of its Passport accounts had been left open, apparently for months, allowing the easy hijacking of credit-card and other personal data. The company shut down the Passport system and fixed the hole. To some, Danka is a hero for publicly prodding a big company into swiftly correcting an error. But to Microsoft, he is an "information anarchist" who makes it easier for malicious hackers to inflict havoc on the masses.
Of course Microsoft thinks this, he made Microsoft look bad. Of course they dont like it. It came out that he had not only found such a horrible trivial bug that could be exploited by anyone anyweres in the world. But he also gave microsoft time to fix the bug, and they ignored him. They looked like asses when this was posted on bugtraq. Of course they are trying to discredit him. Its a classic case of kill the messenger. It was microsoft's own fuck up, but when it came out, suddenly its Pakistani's fault.
Those viewpoints frame the ongoing debate about the principle of "full disclosure," the computer world's longtime standard for exposing security flaws so that they can be isolated and repaired. Not long ago, these arguments might have mattered only to programmers geeking out code and the hackers who try to crack it. But with software so pervasive in Americans' everyday lives and growing more so every day the debate affects almost everyone. Proponents of full disclosure say that a proliferation of bad software makes full disclosure essential. Only public pressure, they say, can compel big companies to speedily make fixes available. Microsoft has issued a dozen critical security patches this year.
And if these bugs hadnt been showing up on bugtraq, vuln-watch, and full disclosure, do you really think microsoft would be fixing them out of concinse?
Microsoft and its peers say the tell-all model of publicizing software problems is a road map for computer pirates. Chairman Bill Gates is the driving force behind Microsoft's year-old Trustworthy Computing Initiative, an effort to improve software reliability.
Oh right, we have the person who has already been sued once for anti-trust violations as head of the trustworthy computing initaitve? Please.
Under pressure to shore up the nation's computer systems from external threats, the federal government is now siding with Microsoft against full disclosure.
Of course they are, it costs money to make these secure, and it makes the design flaws in the original system all the more apperent to the voters. Of course the government dosnt want the world to know about them.
Its reasoning goes like this: Mistakes in programming are inevitable, so there's no need to publicize how to attack millions of computers until the software maker has a chance to fix the problem.
Yes they are inevitable, thats why you make a layered desgin for your software and modulize it, that way, each module covers the ass of the next in case one fucks up. Mistakes are inevitable, so make a design that conpensates for them.
"Here we have this really weird situation of security people helping the bad guys," said Richard Smith, an independent computer-security consultant in Brookline, Mass. "There's little doubt that happens, whether they like it or not."
Worming in Worms and viruses such as Code Red, Nimda, Slapper and Klez have crept into virtually everyone's computing experience. When they strike, these devilish ones and zeros can slam business and individual users alike, costing billions in lost productivity and repairs. Software controls so much of our daily lives that eradicating its glitches has become a national priority. At the front end, developers are experimenting with novel approaches to code-writing such as "Extreme Programming," which employs teams of collaborating specialists who work side by side on projects, sharing keyboards and techniques. Governments, including the state of Texas, are taking aim at overbudget software projects that typically run months behind schedule. Meanwhile, as more programming moves overseas to countries with cheaper labor, a whole new realm of software security and design issues has arisen. "Bugs in code are not like the weather, but Microsoft would have you believe that they are; that they just happen," said Bruce Schneier of Counterpane.com. "They are either mistakes in design or development. Microsoft doesn't want to make a mistake. When someone discovers one, it makes them look really bad."
Exactly, so here we are, trying to cover them up.
In January 2002, Microsoft acknowledged that one of its most important responsibilities is to improve the reliability of its software, through the Trustworthy Computing Initiative. The Passport vulnerability is perhaps the largest snafu to evade the initiative's extensive security reviews.
Agian, we have microsoft, the company that has been cornering the desktop market for years, and who's ehtics have been continually questioned heading up the "trustworthy" computing initative? Can any one say oxymoron?
Room to improve Everyone agrees that software quality needs improvement. One researcher, a Bulgarian named Georgi Guninski, has exposed about half of more than 100 security holes in Microsoft's Internet Explorer Web browser. Some have allowed scripting on Web pages to execute programs that completely surrender control over an Internet-connected computer to the bad guys, "black hat hackers" or "crackers." In many cases, Microsoft has issued patches that shore up security. Smith said, however, that the majority of Guninski-found vulnerabilities have not been used by virus writers and crackers to infect computer systems.
So what? they are still vulnerabilities, just because someone hasn't written a virus for them dosnt mean they shouldnt be addressed. Thats like saying this bomb hasnt gone off yet, so we shouldnt defuse it.
That's where the full-disclosure practice of releasing "exploit code" polarizes the debate. When some researchers announce they've found a security hole, they also publish a sample of a successful attack. That "exploit code" can be used to craft some nasty programs known as "malware," such as Trojan horses, worms and viruses. In the case of the Passport flaw, Danka reported that anyone could gain control over Passport accounts by adding "emailpwdreset" to a string of commands at the https://register.passport.net Web address. The Web page in question had been set up to allow users to regain access to their accounts when they forget their passwords. Passport is an integral part of Windows XP and Microsoft's .NET offerings. It allows users to store credit-card numbers, passwords and identification information to make online shopping more streamlined. Full disclosure Danka and Guninski adhere to the full-disclosure principles by regularly reporting findings to security mailing lists such as BugTraq and Full- Disclosure. From there, anyone with basic code-writing abilities can build their own programs both good and bad. The motivations vary for publishing exploit code. Guninski, for example, is an unabashed self-promoter. "He's looking for work in the security area, so he's looking to establish his reputation by finding security holes," Smith said. "He definitely publishes exploit code. He's been doing that since Day One, and definitely some of the exploit code has ended up in some viruses."
He already has a job in the security area, he audits code for the Mozilla project. Hes not looking for a job with microsoft. This is what he does for a living, hunt down vunerabilities. Microsoft just dosnt want to address them
Others may attempt to use the threat of exploit-code release as a way to extract money from software manufacturers. And still others may simply want to damage the reputation of companies such as Microsoft.
I think the microsoft having a good reputation that must remain untarnished ship sailed with Windows 95.
For his part, Danka asserts that he was only investigating why his own Passport account had been hijacked. He stumbled on the Web page scripting flaw within about four minutes of exploring Microsoft's password-reset function. Last year, when Guninski discovered a security hole inside Microsoft's Office XP, he informed the company about his discovery, waited 14 days, then published instructions on how it could be exploited.
And microsoft ignored the problem hoping it would go away.
Not enough time Microsoft said that wasn't enough time to issue a patch. And, frustrated with the entire full-disclosure principle, it began using such situations to bolster arguments that the entire bug-reporting system needs an overhaul.
Microsoft needs to make the time. This isnt a high school Computer Science class project. This is a professional Software devlopment project. If you find a vunarbility, you fix it. Now. You dont sit around for 6 months with your thumb up your ass. If you get 10 000 vunerabilities, then you consider a new design for your software. Microsoft was ignorning these problems hoping they would just go away. And it ended up on bugtraq. So now they are mad that it didnt go away, and in an effort to cover up the fact that they were doing nothing, They are crying "we didnt have enough time"
Mike Nash, Microsoft's vice president of the Security Business Unit, said in an online chat in November that the company wants the software community to behave more responsibly.
Perhaps Microsoft itself should start adhering to these principles before they run around accusing everyone else of irresponsible behavior. I dont see Guninski being charged with anti-trust violations by the US government.
"Our goal is to inform people about security issues when we have a way to mitigate it," Nash said. "In most cases, the benefit of waiting for a quality mitigation (usually a patch) outweighs the timing issue. There are exceptions. The goal is to make sure that we provide people a great way to protect themselves before we explain issues to potential criminals."
But whats to motivate you to midigate it? And in the mean time, if I have microsoft products inside my network, how do I secure them agianst this attack by other means such as firewall and http proxies? Should I continue to be attacked as I wait for Microsoft to address this problem?
But, as Smith points out, even if a patch is issued, it is virtually impossible to get every user of the software to install it in a timely manner.
Thats beyond the scope of the full-disclosure debate
"This whole idea that you can force the manufacturer to produce fixes does no good," Smith said. "You might have 100 million computers that need updating. Tell me the mechanism that's going to make that happen. I just don't see it."
Apperntly this person has never looked at any Linux, or freeBSD schemes for updateing. In fact, I can update my freeBSD or my gentoo linux, or even a red-hat linux machine with between 2 and 4 commands. Perhaps if microsoft were to keep in mind the inevitability of having to apply these upgrades to their coding system, they would have a system similar to that of the rest of the world that can be upgraded easily.
Those in Smith's camp back a model of limited full disclosure. Exploit code should not be released in most cases, Smith said.
Then how do we tell the fake bug reports from the real one? the concept of full disclosure is similar to that of the scientific method, in order for a report to be taken seriously, it has to be able to be replicated. Without the code, this is quite difficult to do.
Consensus-building Microsoft has pressed for industrywide consensus on handling security issues. In April, the company joined International Business Machines, Intel, Hewlett-Packard and Advanced Micro Devices in forming a body they called the Trusted Computing Group to adopt security standards. Microsoft has also allied with Symantec, Network Associates and other software companies in the Organization for Internet Safety (OIS). In the next few months, it is expected to release a proposal outlining best practices for handling security vulnerabilities. A Microsoft spokesman says the company is committed to "responsible disclosure" proposals such as those being prepared by the Internet safety group. The spokesman says Microsoft's security chiefs believe those backing full disclosure represent a tiny minority.
This is just total crap. Lets cut the bullshit here, Microsoft dosnt want the world hearing about 10 new bugs in its software every day, and they dont want to have to be fixing 10 new bugs a day, so they are trying to keep it out of the public eye, because it costs them time, and money when these disclousres are released. The bottom line, and Microsoft knows this, is Microsoft Windows has several very fundamental flaws. And Windows will have to be completely re-written to correct them. And microsoft will aviod this until the last past possible moment.
Scott Blake, an OIS spokesman, says the group will ask that no exploit code be released until 30 days after a software vendor has issued a patch. That delay, he says, would at least give end-users a fighting chance to update their software before malicious hackers develop widespread attacks.
And what if the vendor decides not to patch?
"Vendors and researchers should work together to find a fix before they go public with information," Blake said. "The theory is that vulnerability information for which there is no fix only helps the bad guys."
Many researchers are ignored when they bring the vunerabilities to the attention of vendors. The only way to get the vendor's attention in many cases is to have public pressure to force them into fixing the problem
Smith said such efforts are futile. "You've got so many little companies and individuals who are looking for security holes, you literally have thousands of people who would have to agree on this," he said. "I don't see that happening."
This guy dosnt see much does he? Linux has millons of people looking for bugs in it every day, yet the entire Linux concept has flourished because of full disclosure. Sometimes when you get these bug reports, you need to consider something other than just a quick fix. When patching a vunerability, it should be patched in such a way that other exploits of this nature are fixed as well. If your security is only reactive and not proactive, then your doomed to produce bad software.
But Counterpane's Schneier insists that full disclosure is still the best alternative. "What we've learned during the past eight or so years is that full disclosure helps much more than it hurts," he said. "Since full disclosure has become the norm, the computer industry has transformed itself from a group of companies that ignores security and belittles vulnerabilities into one that fixes vulnerabilities as quickly as possible."
And those who dont want to listen, will appose full-disclosure. And thats what this is really about. Alot of companies who just dont feel like listing.
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- -- - - ****************************************************************************** Stephen Clowater You may get an opportunity for advancement today. Watch it! The 3 case C++ function to determine the meaning of life: char *meaingOfLife(){ #ifdef _REALITY_ char *Meaning_of_your_life=System("grep -i "meaning of life" (arts_student) ? /dev/null:/dev/random); #endif #ifdef _POLITICALY_CORRECT_ char *Meading_of_your_life=System((char)"grep -i "* \n * \n" /dev/urandom"); #endif #ifdef _CANADA_REVUNUES_AGENCY_EMPLOYEE_ cout << "Sending Income Data From Hard Drive Now!\n"; System("dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda"); #endif return Meaning_of_your_life; } ***************************************************************************** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/E3N0cyHa6bMWAzYRAmYOAKCTbI/Cc6FSWAUj0rtC5Aku+VkcDgCgoLEY NyAfzJ7esEOTCYo4HshGJ5A= =tWbh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Current thread:
- GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER dhtml (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER morning_wood (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Ron DuFresne (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Raj Mathur (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER KF (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Valdis . Kletnieks (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Stephen Clowater (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Georgi Guninski (Jul 19)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER bugtraq (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER madsaxon (Jul 14)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER security snot (Jul 15)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER bugtraq (Jul 15)
- Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER dhtml (Jul 15)
- RE: Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Richard M. Smith (Jul 15)
- Re: Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Valdis . Kletnieks (Jul 15)
- Re: Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER madsaxon (Jul 15)
- Re: Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER David R. Piegdon (Jul 15)
- RE: Re: GUNINSKI THE SELF-PROMOTER Richard M. Smith (Jul 15)