IDS mailing list archives
Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider
From: Martin Roesch <roesch () sourcefire com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:00:10 -0500
A few comments:1) Open "signatures" are about trust, if people have no idea why or how and IDS is doing what it's doing then when the false positives inevitably pop up the user has absolutely no clue what has happened. I find that to be one of the most annoying things about using other people's IDS technologies, their opaqueness drives a constant nagging doubt that the system is configured and working properly. IMO that's one of the reasons that Snort is as popular as it is, people know how and why it does what it does (for better or worse) and the transparency allows them a certain level of comfort that they're in control of and can trust the system instead of the other way around.
2) If a "signature" is written properly then evading it will be non-trivial. This all falls into the "writing the signature for the vulnerability instead of the exploit" thing that we argue about around here from time to time. I don't think knowing what someone is looking for does a whole lot if there's no way to avoid tripping it in the course of an exploit.
3) Snort has had 2 remote exploits (buffer overflow and integer overflow leading to heap overflow on certain platforms) and a 2-3 DoSes due to protocol handler mistakes in 6.5 years. ISS has had at least that many over the years and a resultant worm to boot. Did being closed really help them all that much? I think that developing in the open forces us to be a little more careful than we might otherwise be, but I think that over time being open leads to a more secure codebase due to the exposure to the "elements" that it entails.
Anyway, just my $0.02, hope it was interesting. -Marty On Mar 12, 2005, at 8:54 AM, David W. Goodrum wrote:
I think it's interesting how this is an unwinnable argument for any vendor. At NFR our signatures are openly readable by our customers, but we've heard the exact opposite argument of what you are presenting here: "A potential hacker can read how the signatures work, and use that information to try to evade the IDS". So, if we appeased them, we'd close our signature base, and then we'd be hearing it from the other side of the house. This is a no-win situation for the vendor. We've tried to appease both sides by not having our sigs "publicly" available, but all a really determined hacker has to do is buy our product to read the signatures. So, before you ask ISS to release their codebase for their signature set, you might want to think about what the full consequences of that would be. Snort has had 2 or 3 remote exploits. The only reason this was possible is because their entire product is totally open to the world. I doubt ISS wants to open themselves up to that type of publicity. :)-dave Jeff Boggie wrote:No, the lack of visibility into ISS signature content is a major bone ofcontention in my shop. -----Original Message-----From: Brady, Rick [mailto:Rick.Brady () LibertyMutual com] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 5:08 PMTo: Melih Kirkgöz (Koç.net); Stephane; focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Melih,I guess you must be special to ISS, from my experience the support has been sub-par. Also do you like the idea that ISS IDS signatures are not known tothe customer and only ISS ? Rick Brady Liberty Mutual Group I/S TSSS Engineering Network Access Control mailto:rick.brady () libertymutual com (603) 245-4214 8-435-4214sdn -----Original Message-----From: Melih Kirkgöz (Koç.net) [mailto:melihk () koc net] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:22 AMTo: Stephane; focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Importance: High Hello Stephane,We have been using ISS since last two years.(50 Server Sensor,15 NetworkSensor,1 Proventia G 100 IPS),managed by SiteProtector. We testedNetscreen,ISS,Radware,NAI Intrushield and Checkpoint during our evaluation period for intrusion detection/prevention systems. Strong level of expertiseand good technical support was one of the big reasons choosing ISS. -----Original Message-----From: Stephane [mailto:stephane.d () ecologie net] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:42 PMTo: focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Dear All,How do I choose an IDS/IPS provider if I need a strong level of expertise24x7x365 and a worldwide representaion? I need it on Netscreen, PIX, CheckPoint and ISS Realsecure and Proventia. Thank you, S.---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly?Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from COREIMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more.---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ______________________________________________________________________ ______ _________________________________________________________________ Bu e-posta mesaji kisiye ozel olup, gizli bilgiler iceriyor olabilir. Eger bu e-posta mesaji size yanlislikla ulasmissa, icerigini hic bir sekildekullanmayiniz ve ekli dosyalari acmayiniz. Bu durumda lutfen e-posta mesajini kullaniciya hemen geri gonderiniz ve tum kopyalarini mesajkutunuzdan siliniz. Bu e-posta mesaji, hic bir sekilde, herhangi bir amac icin cogaltilamaz, yayinlanamaz ve para karsiligi satilamaz. Bu e-posta mesaji viruslere karsi anti-virus sistemleri tarafindan taranmistir. Ancakyollayici, bu e-posta mesajinin - virus koruma sistemleri ile kontrolediliyor olsa bile - virus icermedigini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan dogacak hicbir sorumlulugu kabul etmez. This message is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed , and may contain confidential information. If you arenot the intended recipient of this message or you receive this mail in error, you should refrain from making any use of the contents and fromopening any attachment. In that case, please notify the sender immediately and return the message to the sender, then, delete and destroy all copies. This e-mail message, can not be copied, published or sold for any reason. This e-mail message has been swept by anti-virus systems for the presence of computer viruses. In doing so, however, sender cannot warrant that virus or other forms of data corruption may not be present and do not take any responsibility in any occurrence. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly?Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly?Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly?Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ David W. Goodrum Senior Systems Engineer NFR Security 703.731.3765----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly?Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
-- Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616 Sourcefire - Discover. Determine. Defend. - http://www.sourcefire.comSnort: Open Source Intrusion Detection and Prevention - http://www.snort.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly? Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider, (continued)
- RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Stuart Staniford (Mar 16)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Jason (Mar 19)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider David W. Goodrum (Mar 19)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Richard Bejtlich (Mar 23)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Ron Gula (Mar 24)
- RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Chris Harrington (Mar 16)
- Has ISS a SOC in Europe? Stephane (Mar 11)
- RE: Has ISS a SOC in Europe? Gregory Bell (Mar 14)
- RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Jeff Boggie (Mar 11)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider David W. Goodrum (Mar 14)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Martin Roesch (Mar 16)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider David W. Goodrum (Mar 19)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Martin Roesch (Mar 19)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Thomas H . Ptacek (Mar 23)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider David W. Goodrum (Mar 23)
- Re: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Dave Aitel (Mar 19)
- RE: How to choose an IDS/FW MSS provider Randy Golly (Mar 10)