Vulnerability Development mailing list archives
Re: Civil Disobedience
From: "Ken Ludeman" <kludeman () adi-cs com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:02:02 -0700
If the intent were to harm or cause disruption - stiff penalties should be enforced. Life for hacking or defacing is a bit extreme - but attacks on a network that could cause a company millions of dollars or more should carry a stiff sentence... I agree - one didn't murder someone but then again we let murderer's get off early all the time... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron DuFresne" <dufresne () winternet com> To: "Ken Ludeman" <kludeman () adi-cs com> Cc: "Joel Rivers" <rivers () lcms org>; "John Thornton" <jthornton () hackersdigest com>; <declan () wired com>; <ah () well com>; <vuln-dev () securityfocus com>; <oth () 2600 com> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Civil Disobedience
But, do those 'crimes' deserve life imprisonment? Thanks, Ron DuFresne On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Ken Ludeman wrote:I agree with Joel..... Defacing, unethical hacking, and virus-writing
with
intent to distribute is a crime and the punishments for these crimes
should
be looked at more closely. But the "increase in government surveillance authority" is of greater concern and a risk to our civil liberties. Additional "2 cents" worth Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Rivers" <rivers () lcms org> To: "John Thornton" <jthornton () hackersdigest com>; <declan () wired com>; <ah () well com>; <vuln-dev () securityfocus com>; <oth () 2600 com> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Civil DisobedienceWhat civil liberties are we giving up? Since when is hacking, virus-writing, and website defacing a civil liberty? I will agree that life imprisionment is a little harsh for defacing a web site but I think that harsher penalties hopefully will serve as
a
deterent for this type of behavior. I'll say that the "increase in government surveillance authority" is
the
primary area of concern in regards to "losing civil liberties" in thisbill.If anything, this is the area we should be focusing our concern, not
on
harsh penalties for those who are attempting illegal behavior. My 2 cents worth, Joel Rivers-----Original Message----- From: John Thornton [mailto:jthornton () hackersdigest com] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:30 AM To: declan () wired com; ah () well com; vuln-dev () securityfocus com; oth () 2600 com Cc: John Thornton Subject: Civil Disobedience ( Moderator: Please pass this though Blue Boar. Please just allow
this
thread even if it is just for a day ) In case you have been living under a rock the past few weeks. You
should
know that our civil liberties are under attack. Kevin Poulsen wrote: "Hackers, virus-writers and web site defacers would face lifeimprisonmentwithout the possibility of parole under legislation proposed by the
Bush
Administration that would classify most computer crimes as acts of terrorism." ( http://www.securityfocus.com/news/257, Hackers face life
imprisonment
under 'Anti-Terrorism' Act). When you read the news this morning youwillsee that this bill was passed by the Senate. (http://www.securityfocus.com/news/265, Senate passes terror bill). I will say that most of the readers of this news group are not
hackers
butNetwork Administrators that are very involved with the SecurityCommunity.That is why I am asking you, not to report minor scans against your network to the abuse department of any ISP if this bill becomes law. I as a Network Administrator for many years now have been on a
routine
tocheck my logs for scans against my network every morning and send
the
logsof attacks to the abuse department of the ISP. I encourage every
Network
Administrator I ever talked to follow this practice to this day. It
is
myjob Network Administrator to report these attacks on my network, it is what I am paid to do. However if/when this bill becomes law I will no
longer
report these attacks and I urge every Network Administrator to join
me
inthis Civil Disobedience Protest against this bill. If/When this bill becomes law, Hackers/Script Kiddies will no longer
be
looked at as just kids messing around with computers, but as
terrorists.
Just as the press started to tell the difference between a criminal who uses computers and a Hacker. Now they all are just going to be terrorist. I have a problem with this. Perhaps you think this could not happen to you. Well I would suggest
you
read the story on Jerome Heckenkamp ( http://www.freesk8.org/ ). I contributor to BugTraq who wrote a exploit for qpop who is now
facing 16
counts of computer crimes, a maximum sentence of 85 years, and up to
$4
million in fines. After Qualcomm reported him to the FBI. This case is harsh now, just imagine if this happen under the 'Anti-Terrorism' bill. This could happen to you. Again, I have always felt it was my duty to report attacks against
my
network to there ISP. I looked at it as doing my part to make theinternetmore secure. I figured it is a good lesson for the kid to have hisservicetaken away. If this bill becomes law then its no longer just some
kid
getting his service taken away. It is something that can escalate tomuchmore and could result to some kid going to jail for a long time. I will not be a part of it even if there is just a slight possibility that this
can
happen. I want nothing to do with it. I ask each and every one of you to join me in this protest. It is
not
tolate to make a difference. Once you lose your right you will never
get
itback. Thank you for your time, John Thornton - jthornton () hackersdigest com Editor in Chief Hackers Digest - www.hackersdigest.com H A C K E R ' S D I G E S T -------------------------------------------------- Issue 2 comes out November 1st. Will you get it? -------------------------------------------------- www.hackersdigest.com~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart ***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!*** OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything.
Current thread:
- Re: Civil Disobedience, (continued)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ian Stoba (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Tom Arseneault (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ian Stoba (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Russell Handorf (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Felix von Leitner (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Sebastian Ip (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Chip Mefford (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience CJ Oster (Oct 15)
- RE: Civil Disobedience Joel Rivers (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ken Ludeman (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ron DuFresne (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ken Ludeman (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ron DuFresne (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience William N. Zanatta (Oct 16)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Ken Ludeman (Oct 15)
- RE: Civil Disobedience Alan L. Waller (Oct 15)
- RE: Civil Disobedience Ron DuFresne (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Blue Boar (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience VeNoMouS (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience White Vampire (Oct 15)
- Re: Civil Disobedience Joe Shaw (Oct 15)
- RE: Civil Disobedience Jose Nazario (Oct 15)
- RE: Civil Disobedience Ron DuFresne (Oct 15)