FC: Internet provider offers to host "Abortion Abolishionist" site

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

Kudos to Dean Anderson for having the courage to host a site that he 
personally disagrees with. (Like Dean, I disagree with Neal Horsley's views 
on abortion but defend Neal's right to express them.)

To respond to the points below, as for Verio, they own their own network: 
They have the right to set whatever terms of service they believe are 
reasonable, and their customers have the right to walk away if the 
contractual arrangements become too restrictive. But Verio's actions may 
still set a bad example. As a general rule, it seems better for companies 
that merely offer Internet connectivity to take a laissez-faire approach. 
Giving in to one set of activists (and you can be sure pro-choice activists 
were agitating for this) means you have less credibility if you hope to 
refuse the next set when they show up with their own complaints.

See, for instance, the controversial First Church of Christ, Abortionist 
(which was an officially-recognized student organization at Carnegie Mellon 
University):
http://web.archive.org/web/19990430035044/http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/org/fcca/homepage.htm 
l

As of 6 pm ET, the abortioncams.com and other sites are still accessible.

-Declan

---

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dean Anderson <dean () av8 com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
cc: politech () politechbot com, <nhorsley () wechooselife net>
Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete
 websites
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0 () mail well com>

I presume you support Verio's right to pull anything they want, as you
have said that ISP's can block whatever email messages they want, despite
contrary legislation.

This case is clearer, though. Since Verio is (essentially) canceling the
account, and telling Mr. Horsley that they are going to do that. By
contrast, ISP's willfully blocking legitimate mail never tell their
customers they are doing that, and never give advance notice so they can
make other arrangements.

If Mr. Horsley needs web service, I will be happy to provide it to him.
Note that I don't agree with his views--Just his right to have them and
to express them.

Dean Anderson
CEO
Av8 Internet, Inc

---

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:45:14 -0700
From: Mac Hayes <mach37 () mindspring com>
Organization: Land of Promise
To: declan () well com
Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete 
websites

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ...
> Also Please keep this matter in prayer ...
>
> Neal Horsley
> http://www.christiangallery.com


Horsley is the kind of person that gives "freedom of speech" a bad
name.  His web site is the "best" example of hate-mongering,
anti-Christian, violence promoting fanaticism I've seen.  I will
definitely keep the matter of Neal Horsley "in prayer" but not in the
way he wants.

Mac Hayes

---

X-Authentication-Warning: libra.sfsu.edu: strejo owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sonya Trejo <strejo () sfsu edu>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete
 websites
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0 () mail well com>

What does this have to do with Planned Parenthood, the government, or
censorhip? Verio has simply informed him that he is violationg the TOS,
and it is their right to choose whom to do business with. This is exactly
how it's supposed to work. In a free country, we choose our business
relations.

Sonya

---

Reply-To: "Mike Liveright" <mll () usa net>
From: "Mike Liveright" <mll () usa net>
To: <support () verio net>
Cc: <declan () well com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0 () mail well com>
Subject: Re: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:32:21 -0700
Organization: WeMatter.com

Please Email me relative to which policy this user was in violation of... 
(which section of:
http://verio.com/company/policies/aup.cfm ) On first reading, your policies 
do seem
reasonable, but this seems to be a possible case where you are removing 
this user
based on political positions rather than objective considerations.

Though I am opposed to the proposals of Horsley, I think it is a bad policy 
for him to
be un-fairly censored...

I would like to know more about the exact policy that Verio feels he is 
violating and am
here by requesting that they send me, and I will forward it if I get it, 
information.

I agree that a specific ISP may have "reasonable" policies that go beyond 
the law for
restricting their users, e.g. NO SPAM, NO OBSENITY, NO perceived PORNOGRAPHY,
but it is important that there be other ISP's who will host the sites that 
one objects to.

It is also important that an ISP has a reasonable policy and allows a user 
to move to another
site in an orderly fashion.


Mike Liveright                           260 Byron Street.
   mll () usa net                           Palo Alto, CA 94301
   http://www.WeMatter.com    (650) 323-2028


---

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:21:33 -0400
From: Tom Maguire <tmi () idt net>
Reply-To: tmi () idt net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,ja,ko
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: declan () well com
CC: politech () politechbot com, nhorsley () wechooselife net
Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete 
websites

The TOS agreements are draconian in nature. They can kick you off for most any
reason. The fact that someone selected these particular items does raise the
civil issue of discrimination / free speech and you can parade wounded but it
detracts from your primary goal. You must take a sideview of the organization.
While there may be competent legal talent somewhere near the top writing
boilerplate, the $12.00/hr. people in the trenches are dealing with issues like
this. In the world of splitting legal hairs, since it did not come from a
director or officer, you got nuttin'.

I cannot imagine that the same ISPs that carry snuff, porno and con schemes
would object to your content. You can easily go off shore or buy a port at a
nap. I can't imagine your people not knowing this. Walk around the things you
cannot easily change. Stay on point.

In their defense, you have to see some of the new regulations as to what 
can and
cannot be transmitted into certain areas. The ISP has the deep pockets that are
easy to tap and risks the ability to access or do business within the violated
territory.

It is doubtful that you will end abortion. A better short-term goal might be to
educate people about how blurred the decision making process can be during a
sexual encounter, abortion's lifelong effect on the woman's body and future
childbearing, how abortion effects relationships and how the ex-father 
feels, in
an effort to reduce the use of abortion as birth control or worse yet, revenge.

The current status, IMHO, is a result of society leaving no room for the
pregnant teenager, single mother etc. Instead of reaching out to demystify 
human
behavior and destigmatize acting human our spiritual leaders are launching
thunderbolts from the pulpit to strike down the sinners. God has a sense of
humor and the college of cardinals are presently making worldwide asses of
themselves of the subject of pedophile clergy.

When I studied Theology under the great Jesuit scholar, Fr. James DeGaccomo, he
passed on what I feel is a sound religious theory. There is basically no
difference in religions. What God is going to judge you on is your treatment of
others. Not prayers, beatitudes or jihad. Later that same day I had the
disgusting experience of my class being paraded naked around the school's pool
while being observed by an unnamed lay teacher, merrily jingling the coins in
his pocket while scanning groins. This experience cost my parents more than
their mortgage in tuition alone.

The moral of this story is, despite the superb academic resources like Fr. JD,
who is a total class act and above reproach, the overall experience was awful
because the school tolerated this particular lay teacher's behavior. The same
thing applies to unwanted pregnancy. If we are not supportive and accepting to
women who wind up this way while simultaneously trying to keep everyone in the
dark about how sex is going to effect them, you are just not being decent. If
you are using unrestricted abortion for yourself or as a platform to get 
elected
or even to keep someone else from being elected, you are simply not being
decent. Certainly not to the expecting parents one of whom is attached to that
precious fetus. We all know what happens to (him/her).

Religious extremism isn't working that well anywhere. Get to the problems where
people are suffering and buy a little afterlife insurance.

Tom Maguire
TMI Engineering




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