Re: The growth of municipal broadband networks

[Joly MacFie <joly () punkcast com>]

Again excellent points. And I agree, in the current UK model there appears
very little opportunity for independent ISPs to offer any significantly
improved service over the incumbent's own, and thereby grab market share.
It's all a matter of what else one can package with it - effectively the
separation principle anyway.

> Creating the conditions for network competition is a hard problem with no
easy answers.

Where there's a will there's a way. The big question, to some extent is, is
there the will?

One doesn't miss one's water etc. I was cheered to see in the recent
Canadian usage pricing fracas, Marc Garneau handing out buttons saying "My
Internet Shouldn't Suck"[1], and also to see Susan Crawford urging students
to take to the streets over the issue [2] before it's too late. But it's
going to take the equivalent of 10 Tahrir Squares to overcome the incumbent
clout and establishment inertia.

Meanwhile we are seeing widening pre-emptive strikes like N. Carolina. the
incumbents ride roughshod over everyone stating words to the effect - if we
can't gouge we won't build..

There surely still have to be answers, however tough - and some kind of
separation would seem to be an inescapable component.

I am no techie, but alternatively I imagine what could be practically
discussed is how much new technologies like cheap plastic fiber driving
little wi-fi chips, mesh etc, could give those communities that haven't
already been legislated out of the game an opportunity to economically and
successfully build their own connectivity. [3]

j

[1]
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/crtc-wont-include-retail-services-in-internet-price-hearing/article1938694/
[2] http://isoc-ny.org/p2/?p=1930 <http://isoc-ny.org/p2/?p=1930>
[3] I am in the process of organizing a panel to discuss same at the INET NY
on Jun 14, expressions of interest welcome
offlist<joly () punkcast com?subject=INET-NY>
.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Richard Bennett <richard () bennett com>wrote:

>  I think the motive for the traditional separation actually was completely
> different from the one for new separation. Silos had the effect of limiting
> competition for specific services, while the avowed goal of functional
> separation mandates is to increase competition.
>
> Opportunities for service competition between the telegraph and telephone
> networks were limited by technology in the first instance - you couldn't
> carry phone calls over the telegraph network anyway because it was a low
> bandwidth, steel wire system with telegraph office - to telegraph office
> topology - but you could carry telegrams over the phone network, but only if
> permitted by law.
>
> In a sense, ARPANET was telegraph network 2.0, and even used the same
> terminals initially. Paper tape-to-tape transfers became ftp, the telegram
> became email, and kids running paper messages around the office became
> routers switching packets.
>
> The layer 0 model has some merit, but has issues. In areas nobody wants to
> provide ISP services, and there is still a tendency toward market
> consolidation due to economies of scale in the service space.
> Facilities-based competition remains the most viable model in most places,
> as we're seeing in the UK where market structure resembles the US more than
> most want to admit: Their two biggest ISPs are BT and Virgin, the owners of
> the wire, and they have less fiber than we have in the US.
>
> Creating the conditions for network competition is a hard problem with no
> easy answers.
>
> RB
>
> On 3/25/2011 11:48 PM, Joly MacFie wrote:
>
> I take your point, the separation was of a different order. But a
> separation, nonetheless. The motive is not so much different.
>
>  I think we can all accept that "traditional telephone regulation" is
> rapidly losing its grip as the beast morphs. Now that applications outnumber
> networks new problems require new solutions.
>
>  I've heard Allied Fiber's Hunter Newby argue convincingly that really
> it's about separating Level 0 - the real estate, the wires and the head end
> premises - from everything else, and facilitating sufficient open access to
> guarantee healthy competition in services.
>
>  And yes, where there's a monopoly there will have to some price
> regulation. At least that's traditional.
>
>  As we've seen in the UK, while it's not so much a stretch to impose even
> higher level unbundling on the telcos, when it comes to the cable industry
> it's going to be a very painful pulling of teeth.
>
> http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=46077&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10
>
>  j
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 2:01 AM, Richard Bennett <richard () bennett com>wrote:
>
> > The principle that kept telegraph and telephone apart wasn't a functional
> > layering concept, it was a "technology silos" concept under which all
> > communication networks were assumed to be indistinguishable from their one
> > and only one application. If you read the Communications Act of 1934, you'll
> > see this idea embodied in the titles of the act, each of which describes
> > both a network and an application, as we understand the terms today. Wu
> > wants to make law out of the OSI model, a very different enterprise than
> > traditional telecom regulation.
> >
> >
> > On 3/25/2011 10:27 PM, Joly MacFie wrote:
> >
> > > aka the "separation principle" ( Tim Wu - the Master Switch)
> > >
> > > What surprised me is that when I put his point to Richard R.John at the
> > > Columbia Big media event back in Nov
> > > <http://isoc-ny.org/p2/?p=1563>  - John totally agreed with it, citing
> > > the
> > > precedent of the telegraph companies being locked out of the telephone
> > > business back in the day.
> > >
> > >  j
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:52 PM, George Bonser<gbonser () seven com>
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > >  It is only in very recent times that we have been able to overlay
> > > > > Internet on both cable and television, and to have television
> > > > > competition via satellite.
> > > > In "the old days" the phone company didn't provide "content".  You
> > > > called someone and the people at each end provided the content or the
> > > > data going over the network.  The phone company simply provided the
> > > > network.  I still believe the biggest mistake we made was breaking up
> > > > the Bell System.  We should have let them be, regulated the crap out of
> > > > them, and then said "no, you can't get into the business of providing
> > > > content".  They system should have been left as a regulated public
> > > > utility.
> > > >
> > > >  To that end, I think the US would be much better off with fiber to the
> > > > > home on a single distribution infrastructure.  That could be owned and
> > > > > operated by the municipality (like the water system) or owned and
> > > > > operated by a corporation granted an exclusive right to service an
> > > > area
> > > >
> > > > > (think telephone, at least pre CLEC).
> > > > Yup, bring back "The Bell System".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Where you immediately run into a snag is the next layer up.  Should
> > > > >
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > > government provide IP services, if the fiber is government owned?
> > > > > Should private companies be required to offer competitors access to
> > > > > provide IP services if the fiber is privately owned?
> > > > I would say they provide network access only, not content.  They would
> > > > be kept out of providing content and kept in the business of reliably
> > > > connecting content to consumer.  That would be their focus.
> > > >
> > > >  Having looked around the world I personally believe most communities
> > > > > would be best served if the government provided layer-1 distribution,
> > > > > possibly with some layer 2 switching, but then allowed any commercial
> > > > > entity to come in and offer layer 3 services.
> > > > I don't.  What happens when the "government" then decides what content
> > > > is and is not allowed to go over their network?  If one had a site that
> > > > provided a view that the government didn't like, would they cut it off?
> > > > I want the government very strictly limited in what they can and cannot
> > > > do and I want them to have to go to an outside entity for things like
> > > > lawful intercept because it is another check on their power.  A private
> > > > entity might insist that there is a proper warrant or subpoena while the
> > > > government might simply decide to snoop first, get the paperwork later.
> > > > Keeping the network at arm's length from the government helps to make
> > > > sure there is another entity in the loop.
> > > >
> > > >  For simplicity of
> > > > > argument I like people to envision the local government fiber agency
> > > > > (like your water authority) dropping off a 1 port fiber 4 port copper
> > > > > switch in your basement.
> > > > Big difference.  Water is not a good analogy.  The "content" in that
> > > > case is from a central source and everyone gets the same thing.  With
> > > > the network, you have people communicating back and forth and much of
> > > > that communications is private or expected to be private (say, a phone
> > > > call or a secure financial transaction).  If a private entity screws up,
> > > > it is much easier to fine them or fire the person responsible than it is
> > > > to punish a government department or fire a government worker.  Besides,
> > > > we really don't need yet more people on the government payroll.
> > > >
> > > > Though I do agree that it is a natural monopoly.  It should be managed
> > > > by a regulated utility that is explicitly prohibited from providing the
> > > > content, only provide access through the network.
> > --
> >   Richard Bennett
>
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
> WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
>  http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
>  VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
>
> --
> Richard Bennett


-- 
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Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
 http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
 VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
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