nanog mailing list archives

RE: Wacky Weekend: NERC to relax power grid frequency strictures


From: Alex Rubenstein <alex () corp nac net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 00:23:47 -0400


It ismy understanding also that most commercial grade gensets have
built into the ATS logic that when utility power comesback online, that
the transfer back to utility power is coordinated with the ATS driving
the generator until both frequency and phases are within a user
specified range?


Well, that depends.

If you have a open-transition ATS, where there is a 'neutral' (read: not connected to any source) position, it doesn't 
matter (much). Well, it matters a little. There is really two types of open transition.

Something called "open transition" will provide a transfer by going closed-open-closed (in both directions). The issue 
is the open portion of that transfer can be very short; sometimes only a few cycles at 60 hz. If you have an electric 
motor connected as load (fan, compressor, whatever), if the sources are out of phase, it can be an interesting event 
for said motor. Typically, a open transition switch will wait until the phasing is 'close enough' (usually programmable 
by way of degrees.). We have an old russ electric ats somewhere that is happy at about 15 degrees +/-.

There is also a type, "delayed transition", which is closed-open-wait-closed. Wait is typically programmable, it may be 
500 msec, it might be a minute. It's up to the user. This is regarded as the safest type of switch (imho) because you 
do not run the risk of any of the above mentioned badness. However, in a datacenter scenario, you do have a battery hit 
(ranging from tens or hundreds of millisecond to many seconds depending on what you want). How good is your UPS and 
battery plant? Will your fans inertia keep air moving for a little while? All things to consider.

If you have a closed-transition switch, typically the retransfer from emergency to normal is closed-closed, meaning 
that emergency gen, normal utility, and load are all connected together for a short while. Typically in the tens or 
hundreds of msecs. Anything longer than that kinda falls into the cogeneration category. That is another discussion.

At least here in JCPL territory (northern NJ), closed transition is frowned upon. Too much risk, they think. They are 
correct, really, but the risk is mostly yours. If you lock to the utility out-of-phase, you will surely lose and they 
will surely win. The fault you create that they will see will probably not hurt them. Unless it is extraordinarily 
large and you are very close to the nearest substation. You must really trust your utility and your transfer gear and 
your generators to do this. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of this, but that is just religion.

Personally, I like delayed transition, and that is what we do on anything recent. Short, usually, like 3 or 5 seconds. 
If anyone wants a demonstration, let me know. Long enough for motor controls to say "oh, hey, we lost power so let's do 
a nice soft restart of motors" and compressor controls can do delayed restarts as well. Works quite well, in practice.

Much is overlooked in this discussion, as to things people should do about ATS and UPS programming.. but it is outside 
of the scope of NANOG unfortunately. Perhaps we need a NADCOG or something. 

What does this have to do with the whole 60 hz discussion and clocks? Not much. Other than I will have to rely on the 
cell phone more and the microwave less for time.







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