Re: A provokative pov -- screening gets slammed by federal judge

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Dan Lynch <dan () lynch com>
Date: July 10, 2009 10:43:47 AM EDT
To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>, <ChrisSavage () dwt com>
Subject: Re: [IP] Re:     A provokative pov -- screening gets slammed  
by federal  judge

It sounds good until you see the HUGE delays the Israeli procedures  
entail.  Three interrogators per traveler for a few minutes each.   
Yes, they are very effective, but at a huge cost.  You would see lines  
stretching out to the freeways.  Or no real air travel.  One only goes  
to Israel for a good  reason.   One goes to Seattle/Vegas/New York for  
fun mostly.  Anyway, I’m not faulting the Israeli techniques; just  
that they do not scale well.

Dan



On 7/9/09 8:09 AM, "Dave Farber" <dave () farber net> wrote:

> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: "Savage, Christopher" <ChrisSavage () dwt com>
> Date: July 9, 2009 10:56:51 AM EDT
> To: <dave () farber net>
> Subject: RE: [IP] Re:   A provokative pov -- screening gets slammed  
> by federal  judge
>
>
> If the TSA asked reasonable questions and used the answers as a  
> basis for deciding who has to stand in line, take their shoes off,  
> etc., that might make sense.  The way they (we) have chosen to deal  
> with this issue creates enormous burdens on society/the economy in  
> terms of lost time and hassle on the part of millions of people per  
> day.  If the Israelis have a more efficient way to achieve the  
> objective (no terrorists on airplanes) than we have, let’s go for  
> it.  But I think that that would suggest a complete re-engineering  
> of our airport security processes, not just adding additional stuff  
> to the existing process.
>
> Chris S.
>
> From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:42 PM
> To: ip
> Subject: [IP] Re: A provokative pov -- screening gets slammed by  
> federal judge
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Stewart Baker <stewart.baker () gmail com>
> Date: July 8, 2009 6:41:50 PM EDT
> To: dave () farber net
> Cc: ip <ip () v2 listbox com>
> Subject: Re: [IP] Re: A provokative pov -- screening gets slammed by  
> federal  judge
>
> For a long time it was conventional wisdom, probably including on  
> this list, that TSA wasn't as good at security as the Israelis  
> because TSA looked for weapons while the Israelis looked for  
> terrorists.  That's probably true.
>
> So how do the Israelis look for terrorists instead of just weapons?   
> By asking reasonable questions and listening for answers that don't  
> add up.  Which is what the TSA has begun doing, thank goodness.
>
> Only a monomaniac (or the ACLU) would think that TSA could do a good  
> job by failing to look for and react to unusual or suspicious  
> behavior and instead just looking for bomb equipment.
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 5:53 PM, David Farber <dave () farber net> wrote:
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Robert Siegel <rob () casasiegel com>
> Date: July 8, 2009 3:57:46 PM EDT
> To: Dave Farber <dave () FARBER NET>
> Subject: Re: [IP] TSA screening gets slammed by federal judge
>
> Dave,
>
> Dumb question to you and the list:
>
> If a TSA member caught people using fake passports, isn't that a  
> good thing
> for the citizenry?  I've listened to the audio tape from Mr.  
> Bierfeldt's
> experience, and I agree that the TSA representatives behaved  
> incorrectly in
> that instance, but if these folks can catch people who might be  
> smuggling
> drugs or people illegally (into prostitution, slavery, etc.),  
> shouldn't we
> be happy about that?
>
> While I grant that "increasing scope" on negative things is a real  
> pain,
> what about when they do things that are good for us?  Personally, I'm
> psyched someone caught some bad guys smuggling fake passports.
>
> Best,
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> On 7/8/09 7:01 AM, "Dave Farber" <dave () farber net> wrote:
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Richard Forno <rforno () infowarrior org>
> Date: July 8, 2009 9:20:26 AM EDT
> To: Undisclosed-recipients: <>;
> Cc: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>
> Subject: TSA screening gets slammed by federal judge
>
> JULY 7, 2009, 11:14 P.M. ET
>
> Is Tougher Airport Screening Going Too Far?
>
> By SCOTT MCCARTNEY
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204556804574261940842372518.html
> The Transportation Security Administration has moved beyond just
> checking for weapons and explosives. It’s now training airport
> screeners to spot anything suspicious, and then honoring them when
> searches lead to arrests for crimes like drug possession and credit-
> card fraud.
>
> But two court cases in the past month question whether TSA searches—
> which the agency says have broadened to allow screeners to use more
> judgment—have been going too far.
>
> A federal judge in June threw out seizure of three fake passports from
> a traveler, saying that TSA screeners violated his Fourth Amendment
> rights against unreasonable search and seizure. Congress authorizes
> TSA to search travelers for weapons and explosives; beyond that, the
> agency is overstepping its bounds, U.S. District Court Judge Algenon
> L. Marbley said.
>
> Two recent court cases question whether TSA searches have been going
> too far.
>
> “The extent of the search went beyond the permissible purpose of
> detecting weapons and explosives and was instead motivated by a desire
> to uncover contraband evidencing ordinary criminal wrongdoing,” Judge
> Marbley wrote.
> In the second case, Steven Bierfeldt, treasurer for the Campaign for
> Liberty, a political organization launched from Ron Paul’s
> presidential run, was detained at the St. Louis airport because he was
> carrying $4,700 in a lock box from the sale of tickets, T-shirts,
> bumper stickers and campaign paraphernalia. TSA screeners quizzed him
> about the cash, his employment and the purpose of his trip to St.
> Louis, then summoned local police and threatened him with arrest
> because he responded to their questions with a question of his own:
> What were his rights and could TSA legally require him to answer?
>
> Mr. Bierfeldt recorded the encounter on his iPhone and the American
> Civil Liberties Union filed suit in June against Homeland Security
> Secretary Janet Napolitano, claiming in part that Mr. Bierfeldt’s
> experience at the airport was not an anomaly.
>
> “Whether as a matter of formal policy or widespread practice, TSA now
> operates on the belief that airport security screening provides a
> convenient opportunity to fish for evidence of criminal conduct far
> removed from the agency’s mandate of ensuring flight safety,” the ACLU
> said in its suit.
>
> ‘Mission Creep’?
> TSA said in a statement on the Bierfeldt incident that travelers are
> required to cooperate with screeners, and while it is legal to carry
> any amount of money when flying domestically, the agency believes
> cooperation includes answering questions about property. As a result
> of the recording, however, TSA determined that “the tone and language
> used by the TSA employee was inappropriate and proper disciplinary
> action was taken.”
>
> The cases will likely inflame TSA critics and frequent travelers who
> believe screeners take a heavy-handed approach and worsen the hassle
> of getting through airports with layers of rules and sometimes
> inconsistent policies between different cities.
>
> “TSA agents don’t get to play cops,” says Ben Wizner, an attorney who
> filed Mr. Bierfeldt’s suit. The ACLU has heard an increasing number of
> reports of TSA agents involved in what he called “mission creep,” he
> says.
> snip
>
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