Re: VPN providers and any providers in general...

[Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com>]

True, I know some hackers who really apply the "Ballmers Peak" (
http://xkcd.com/323/) principle... They simply need to dry up :)

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:51 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:

> Well, statistics show that most crime is done on some form of drug, and
> drug addiction is probably about 90% of most major crime evens, so, i think
> this gives people of the IT nature, a much higher chance, staitstically
> speaking, it would be of more benfit to simply rehab them, rather than make
> them a possible statistic of the 'rotation' count most harder crims have.
> ok,. im out!
> xd
>
>
>
> On 3 October 2011 22:38, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com>wrote:
>
> > Well, thanks for the logical response :)
> >
> > Many people want these "evil hackers" locked up and such, but doing so
> > will only achieve the folowing (in my opinion):
> > A: Cost money.
> > B: Turn them into a more hardened criminal.
> > C: Cost the community a useful person who could be beneficial to them.
> >
> > Consider that Davis is 18, Cleary only 19, and other people arrested are
> > about the same age. What the law enforcement and judicial bodies dealing
> > with them must realize is that they are dealing with intelligent young
> > people, who simply chose the wrong path. What they need is not a prison
> > stay, but some rehabilitative treatment, perhaps councilling to help them
> > find the right path, and a better sense of morality.
> >
> > Hell, in some cases the mere arrest itself scared people straight. Having
> > a bloody SWAT team blow the bloody doors off is enough to reangline* most
> > young mens moral compass!
> >
> > Of course, jailing them can be used to "send a message" that "this is not
> > acceptable" and such, but that has *less* merit than *using* them for good.
> > All one does by sending a message is make those still out there feel more
> > persecuted, and persecuted people lash out, doing more damage, and the cycle
> > continues.
> >
> > *This computers spellcheck is not working, it wants to use Cyrillic!
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:28 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:
> >
> > > Ok.. my final posts on this matter i think... and opinons,
> > >
> > >
> > > (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
> > > than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
> > > fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
> > > whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).
> > >
> > > It does outweigh, for, each time a perso is jailed it costs you, me, and
> > > anyone wh works, money.
> > > We can re3duce the harm, by education and counselling. Especially forced
> > > hours per-week basis, of counselling with a qualified psych, possibly before
> > > release even better.
> > > I think the IQ level is higher, therfore, there is a 'smarter' chance of
> > > it happening, asmuch as theyre hacking, theyre also gaining tremendus
> > > knoledge, many do go into IT sec, we just cannot see those cases really..and
> > > when we do, theyre usually yrs after the thing has happened, but, i could
> > > think of a few EU based guys who are hapily workin for huge co's, making
> > > massive cash, evven maker of Morphine, HolyFather, admittedly went into Av,
> > > and made rootkits for years.
> > > So, for sure, why put them in jail, it is just going to 'harden' , like
> > > anyone will when ones back is up against the wall, as it will be in jail
> > > ofc.
> > > I think rehab, rather than retalliate.
> > >
> > > Bedtme here for me :)
> > > I enjoy your posts, and i think the whole topic has much merit in these
> > > lists, other than just about a cpl of websites, pople forget that it is
> > > still about, the freedom to even, do a simple pentest , really thats the
> > > crux of it.
> > >
> > > So, i think,some method used by psychology, could very easily work,
> > > especially because, these guys are usually VERY smart, and, the can still be
> > > 'saved' unlike some hardened armed-robber/burglar...
> > > The chance of rehab, is specially high because of the intellectual
> > > platform it takes  just to be at a simple or mediate level of the scale, in
> > > terms of 'hacking' in hgeneral.
> > > cheers,
> > > xd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3 October 2011 22:17, Darren Martyn <
> > > d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the input, I will be putting this as a debate soon for thew
> > > > Law Society in the Uni I attend, to see what the legal guys think.
> > > >
> > > > The issue in the example is not fraud, but damage done to the servers
> > > > (lets assume root/deface) and perhaps leaking of stolen data - the case I am
> > > > using as an example would be, for example, the "LulzSec" breaches. How hard
> > > > would they get f*cked on an international scale if arrested? How many
> > > > countries will try extradite them?
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion, they should be simply charged, tried and convicted in
> > > > their country of residence and be done with it - there is no benefit to
> > > > society as a whole to be gained from hanging them three or four times a
> > > > piece, as I reckon given a good shock and such, they come out with a
> > > > newfound respect for authority and may even be of some benefit to the
> > > > security community and the community as a whole. Locking them up merely
> > > > turns them further toward criminal lives - and remember, all hackers *have*
> > > > potential to do good as well as evil, it is just a matter of their choice.
> > > > Given a *shove* toward the right decision is more beneficial in the end.
> > > >
> > > > "Discuss"...
> > > >
> > > > (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
> > > > than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
> > > > fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
> > > > whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:34 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Could just lok at the recent david cecil case here in .au.
> > > > > It does say alot, because he did breach some bigger networks.. and he
> > > > > was committing 'smaller' scale fraud but, still fraud, however, his main
> > > > > problem was what he did to a governemnt site, wich was deface it for
> > > > > personal gain, not profit.
> > > > > It is the latest case wich would be valid of this.
> > > > > still.. intresting infos... good stuff.
> > > > > xd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3 October 2011 19:16, Darren Martyn <
> > > > > d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Going back to my own example, say all three are first world countries,
> > > > > > and A and C are in the EU whilst B is the US. All nations involved have good
> > > > > > diplomatic relations and preexisting extradition treaties, and to add
> > > > > > interest to it, lets say the LEO in B and C helped the investigation. The
> > > > > > criomes would be non-financial, but say, large scale hacks and such. I will
> > > > > > use Jake Davis's case as a "canary case" for this though...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:31 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ah, the legend of the mailing-list himself, has spoken.
> > > > > > > not knowing you, for all i have seen, your a pathetic sack of
> > > > > > > rubbish, and really, what we are discussing, if you had ANY clue, wich obv
> > > > > > > dont, is simply how far our own freedom is going.
> > > > > > > You are an idiot.
> > > > > > > Have a nice day.
> > > > > > > xd
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 2 October 2011 08:45, andrew.wallace <
> > > > > > > andrew.wallace () rocketmail com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 AM,  <Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:16:11 +1000, xD 0x41 said:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As you also said, murder is a no brainer in any place...well,
> > > > > > > > maybe not iraq
> > > > > > > > > > or afghanistan just yet :P lol..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Iraq, for all its problems, is still a place with a somewhat
> > > > > > > > functional
> > > > > > > > > judicial system. The court system may be broken, but you in
> > > > > > > > general *will* at
> > > > > > > > > least appear in a courtroom with a judge and be pronounced guilty
> > > > > > > > before you're
> > > > > > > > > punished.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was actually thinking more along the lines of  totally failed
> > > > > > > > states such as
> > > > > > > > > Somalia, Sudan, or the contested parts of Afghanistan, where you
> > > > > > > > can't be tried
> > > > > > > > > for murder because there isn't a court to try you *in*.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have you not grown old of talking to children on mailing lists?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrew Wallace
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Independent consultant
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > www.n3td3v.org.uk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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