Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: go public to avoid jail
From: J Roger <securityhocus () gmail com>
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 10:29:47 -0700
In the United States the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. Stephen was innocent until proven guilty. I'm suggesting Stephen could have released his tool to the public so anyone authorized to audit cardholder data environments could have used it. What he did was the same thing as someone supplying burglar tools
to someone, knowing that they're going to break into someone's house
If the tool was released publicly, and not just to Mr. Gonzales, would the prosecution be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that this scenario took place and not just that Mr. Gonzales used a publicly available tool his friend happened to have created and distributed publicly, to commit his crimes?
Where do you get that idea? Under what legal theory do you postulate that?
Common sense He still knew his software was going to be used by a known
individual, WHO TOLD HIM BEFOREHAND, that he was going to use the software to rip people off. That makes him liable, period.
Could the prosecution prove this is the case if the tool wasn't distributed only to Gonzales? Releasing the tool publicly could help the defense argue the point that he was told beforehand, that he knew it would be used to rip people off, etc. no amount of twisting the facts is going to convince a
judge otherwise.
The defense doesn't need to convince the judge that Stephen is a saint, only needs to weaken the prosecutions argument enough. If your buddy comes to you and says "I'm going to go stab some people
and take their money will you construct for me a custom knife particularly well-suited for that purpose" and you say "sure, here you go, heh, no charge this time" and this conversation is recorded as evidence then both of you are going to get prosecuted.
Could they prove his buddy came to him and said "I'm going to commit crime X will you provide me with tool Y to do it?" Since the tool was made and distributed only to Gonzales it was probably pretty difficult to argue the above scenario did not occur. If the tool was released publicly and Gonzales went and downloaded it from PacketStorm along with a thousand other people that day, proving the above scenario occurred could be more challenging. The point is that you
knew this specific knife was intended to be used in for this purpose and you decided to go out of your way to help.
If the tool was released publicly, how much more difficult would it have been for the prosecution to prove that you knew the tool was intended to be used for a particular illegal purpose in a specific case and you went out of your way to help? JRoger On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Marsh Ray <marsh () extendedsubset com> wrote:
If your knife is found in a dead body, you've going to have some explaining to do. If it turns out that you're a restaurant supply business that sells 3000 of that model knife a week, then you don't have a problem. If your buddy comes to you and says "I'm going to go stab some people and take their money will you construct for me a custom knife particularly well-suited for that purpose" and you say "sure, here you go, heh, no charge this time" and this conversation is recorded as evidence then both of you are going to get prosecuted. No one (seriously, no one) is going to be the least bit impressed by the "factories sell knives all the time" argument. The point is that you knew this specific knife was intended to be used in for this purpose and you decided to go out of your way to help. Hacking/pen-test tools can definitely push the gray area a bit, but the custom-knife-in-dead-body example does not. - Marsh On 5/3/2010 5:34 AM, Christian Sciberras wrote:No, I'm being damn realistic. If it weren't me providing a knife to "my buddy" it would be someone else, or some kitchen drawer. Also, why do I go to jail, not the shop owner that sold me the knife? Orthefactory owner? It's this guy that should be liable to the crime, not the provider. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Ed Carp <erc () pobox com> wrote:Oh, stop it. If you give your buddy a knife, knowing they're going to go out and stab someone with it, you're going to jail, too. Stop playing the fool._______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/_______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
_______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: go public to avoid jail PsychoBilly (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Ed Carp (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Christian Sciberras (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Ed Carp (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Christian Sciberras (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Marsh Ray (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail T Biehn (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail J Roger (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Ed Carp (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail J Roger (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail T Biehn (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Ed Carp (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail J Roger (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Valdis . Kletnieks (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail J Roger (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Valdis . Kletnieks (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Christian Sciberras (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail PsychoBilly (May 04)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Ed Carp (May 03)
- Re: go public to avoid jail Christian Sciberras (May 03)