Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove
From: coderman <coderman () gmail com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:21:03 -0800
On 12/27/05, Paul Schmehl <pauls () utdallas edu> wrote:
... Well, no, they are not "clearly illegal". That is a matter of opinion and not law.
you are both correct to some degree. as an unsatisfying but appropriate conclusion consider that the interpretation of the law by a judge / jury must consider intent and actions. while a 'dragnet' style 'detection' network may not clearly fit the model of surveillance relevant to and overseen by the FISA court, it is much more clear that the actions and intents of the administration are less clear cut. i think bush's quote about that annoying document he swore to uphold being nothing more than 'a goddamn piece of paper' shows the disposition of this administration as openly capricious / thoughtless where privacy and/or essential freedoms are concerned.
In fact, all legal precedents indicate that the program is legal, within the purview of the President's powers under Article II of the Constitution.
but only if the dragnet itself is legal. side stepping FISA is not permissible if the FISA court is intended to oversee a program of the nature pursued by the NSA / other agencies at the continued and repeated request of the administration. a judge will have to determine this (if it comes to such).
You are aware that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War? Many people were outraged and insisted it was "clearly illegal", yet Article I, Section 9 states that habeas corpus cannot be suspended *except* in times of rebellion or invasion. So Lincoln's actions were Constitutional.
this is not really relevant to the particular questions in this case and you know it.
Just because you don't like something your government does doesn't make it illegal.
and just because we are at war the rule of law does not dissipate.
The 1st Amendment also applies, in that free speech can also be private, with unauthorized others excluded, for whatever reason, and/or anonymous. If government intrudes, it has an unwarranted chilling effect.Really? Where in the First Amendment does it mention "private" speech?
indeed; privacy is a difficult subject wrt the bill of rights. it's not nearly as well defined and protected as you imply. but that doesn't mean there is no right to privacy either... in any case, the pissed off federal judiciary is not a good sign for bush or the administration. some toes have been stepped on and there will be some kind of fallout (though perhaps minimal...) _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove, (continued)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Leif Ericksen (Dec 26)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 26)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Kurt Buff (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Paul Schmehl (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Benjamin Franz (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Dean Pierce (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Kurt Buff (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Gary E. Miller (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Paul Schmehl (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Leif Ericksen (Dec 26)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove coderman (Dec 27)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Leif Ericksen (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Leif Ericksen (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Stan Bubrouski (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove and other tales Steve Kudlak (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove and other tales Leif Ericksen (Dec 29)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Geo. (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 28)
- Re: Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove Joshua Levitsky (Dec 28)