Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal.

["Mary Landesman" <mlande () bellsouth net>]

You are correct. I did not read your post carefully enough and responded to
my (mis) interpretation of your intent rather than the words themselves. My
apologies.

-- Mary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Bart.Lansing () kohls com>
To: "Mary Landesman" <mlande () bellsouth net>
Cc: <full-disclosure () lists netsys com>;
<full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Hacking into private files, my credit card
purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing
and criminal.


> Mary, please don't mangle my comments like that...I did not say we are
> wired to be bad.  I said nothing like that at all.  Point in fact, I said:
>
>
> > > There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral.
>
> > > Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or
> > > magically imbued.
>
>  We are not pre-wired with morals, and that's not at all saying "...we are
> somehow wired to be bad.."  (I've read a lot of your posts, Mary...thought
> you were more attentive than that).   We are amoral, not immoral, at
> birth...what morals and behaviors and social codes we have, we are taught.
>  "Thou shalt not kill" is not a genetically coded behavior...it is
> learned.  (And by the way...the why behind "Thou shalt not kill" is "Or
> you will roast in hell for eternity/be obliterated by your local diety of
> choice",  which does not sound like positive reinforcement to me...does it
> to you?)
>
> I did not, ever, say that we are wired to be bad...since good and bad
> don't exist for us until someone else teaches us the concepts.
>
> I also did not say "...that only negative consequences change it..."  What
> I said was:
>
> > > ...people cannot be made to change, therefore laws are in place
> > > to deter unwanted behaviors...and failing that, to punish those who are
>
> > > not deterred.  Behavior modification through negative reinforcements
> > > works...always has, most likely always will.
>
> Either you have never parented or you did not care if your child stuck
> his/her hand on a hot stove burner (If you told your child "Don't do that
> or you will be burned!" you just used negative reinforcement).  Positive
> reinforcement "only" reinforces/rewards desired  behaviors (that "only"
> does not imply that this is a little deal...rewarding desired behaviors is
> a fine thing)...it does not change undesired behaviors.  Negative
> reinforcement is a vehicle of behavioral change.  Think about it, and then
> give me an example of using positive reinforcement to effect change,
> without it coming off as bribery; i.e. "If you stop doing XXX I'll give
> you YYY".  That method of behavior modification ultimately tends to breed
> extortionists, don't you think?
>
> Anyway, this is Full Disclosure, not Psychology Today...I just dislike
> being misquoted...
>
> cheers
>
> Bart Lansing
> Manager, Desktop Services
> Kohl's IT

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