Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal.
From: Bart.Lansing () kohls com
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:21:01 -0500
Mary, please don't mangle my comments like that...I did not say we are wired to be bad. I said nothing like that at all. Point in fact, I said:
There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral.
Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or magically imbued.
We are not pre-wired with morals, and that's not at all saying "...we are somehow wired to be bad.." (I've read a lot of your posts, Mary...thought you were more attentive than that). We are amoral, not immoral, at birth...what morals and behaviors and social codes we have, we are taught. "Thou shalt not kill" is not a genetically coded behavior...it is learned. (And by the way...the why behind "Thou shalt not kill" is "Or you will roast in hell for eternity/be obliterated by your local diety of choice", which does not sound like positive reinforcement to me...does it to you?) I did not, ever, say that we are wired to be bad...since good and bad don't exist for us until someone else teaches us the concepts. I also did not say "...that only negative consequences change it..." What I said was:
...people cannot be made to change, therefore laws are in place to deter unwanted behaviors...and failing that, to punish those who are
not deterred. Behavior modification through negative reinforcements works...always has, most likely always will.
Either you have never parented or you did not care if your child stuck his/her hand on a hot stove burner (If you told your child "Don't do that or you will be burned!" you just used negative reinforcement). Positive reinforcement "only" reinforces/rewards desired behaviors (that "only" does not imply that this is a little deal...rewarding desired behaviors is a fine thing)...it does not change undesired behaviors. Negative reinforcement is a vehicle of behavioral change. Think about it, and then give me an example of using positive reinforcement to effect change, without it coming off as bribery; i.e. "If you stop doing XXX I'll give you YYY". That method of behavior modification ultimately tends to breed extortionists, don't you think? Anyway, this is Full Disclosure, not Psychology Today...I just dislike being misquoted... cheers Bart Lansing Manager, Desktop Services Kohl's IT full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com wrote on 10/08/2004 06:01:35 PM: Judicious snips...
And I don't agree with the rather cynical outlook of one poster who
claims
we are somehow wired to be bad and that only negative consequences
change
it. Sounds rather like a handly rationalization to me.
-- Mary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Smith" <stfunub () gmail com> To: "Banta, Will" <will.banta () broadwing com> Cc: "morning_wood" <se_cur_ity () hotmail com>; <full-disclosure () lists netsys com> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Hacking into private files, my credit
card
purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is
trespassing
and criminal. Am i the only one concerned at the childish behavious on these mailing lists? I've not been reading for so long, but in my second or third email to these lists i've been told that someone 'doesn't care' about me and my 'weak brain'. And now this 'OK. You're wrong.' ? Is this neccesary? I beleive Morning_Wood raises some good points. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
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Current thread:
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal., (continued)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Alen Capalik (Oct 08)
- RE: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Clairmont, Jan M (Oct 08)
- RE: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Banta, Will (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Andrew Smith (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Alen Capalik (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Mary Landesman (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Alen Capalik (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Mary Landesman (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Bart . Lansing (Oct 11)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Mary Landesman (Oct 11)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Andrew Smith (Oct 08)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Giselbert Hinkelmann (Oct 11)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. VeNoMouS (Oct 11)
- Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal. Barry Fitzgerald (Oct 12)