RE: Cisco CTR

["Rob Shein" <shoten () starpower net>]

Just because it can be envisioned doesn't mean that the application is
worthless.  There are things that can be envisioned that have the same
relevance to firewalls, IDS, antivirus, IPS, and honeypots/nets.  But just
because something isn't a magic bullet doesn't mean it has no value or
purpose.  Each individual case requires thought about tradeoffs.  In this
case, the risk of someone managing to auto-patch an exploit in band with the
exploit itself may well be outweighed by the minimizing of alerts on futile
attacks; it comes down to the policies and priorities of the end user.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Marziani [mailto:marziani () oasis com] 
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:29 AM
> To: Rob Shein; 'Gary Flynn'
> Cc: 'Liran Chen'; focus-ids () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Cisco CTR
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rob Shein [mailto:shoten () starpower net]
> >
> > There's nothing unsubstantiated about it at all.  Look at 
> the code for 
> > some of the exploits, actually READ the code.
>
> Do you honestly think that all the intrusion apps hackers 
> write and use are easily available?  Malicious hackers almost 
> never share their trade secrets.
>
> > in most situations.  The true definition of "immediately," meaning
> "without
> > delay," does not apply here. There is a delay, and while it can be 
> > very short, it is far longer than that of CTR's response, 
> which truly 
> > is immediate.
>
> So you can't envision any circumstance in which the Cisco CTR 
> could be bogged down just long enough to allow a patch to 
> occur, or even easier, for the hacking program to take over 
> the port it just came in through and fake the response that 
> the patched program would give (i.e. exploit an apache flaw, 
> get root, shut down apache and run tiny custom daemon app in 
> it's place which advertises a version of apache without the 
> flaw).  I just pulled this off the top of my head, do you 
> think hackers can't come up with something even better?
>
> I'm not slamming any product or offering like the Cisco CTR.  
> These are very good products and protect in ways that few if 
> any previous systems can.  I'm just saying that no system is 
> bulletproof and we should never underestimate the opposition.
>
> -Michael
>
>
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Marziani [mailto:marziani () oasis com]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:47 AM
> > > To: Rob Shein; 'Gary Flynn'
> > > Cc: 'Liran Chen'; focus-ids () securityfocus com
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco CTR
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rob Shein [mailto:shoten () starpower net]
> > > >
> > > > Yes, but nobody patches it THAT quickly.  CTR acts
> > > immediately, not a
> > > > half-hour later...it would have started scanning by the 
> time the 
> > > > hacker at the other end notices that he has a shell...
> > >
> > > Please don't make unsubstantiated blanket statements like that.  
> > > Hackers are skilled sysadmins and programmers who create packaged 
> > > hacking tools that not only search for and exploit flaws 
> to get them 
> > > onto a system, but also install programs, disable 
> security features, 
> > > and yes, patch servers
> > > *immediately* once they get inside.
> > >
> > > A system like Cisco CTR might very well detect the attack 
> before the 
> > > hacker's program has time to patch, but that all depends 
> on how good 
> > > the hacker's program is, the state of the network, etc.  
> I'd like to 
> > > see the results of a live test of such an event.
> > >
> > > If this type of attack can succeed as I think it could, I think a 
> > > solution would be for the IDS to keep a record of the 
> patch levels 
> > > of every system in the network and allow those patch levels to be 
> > > updated only through an administrative interface (requiring 
> > > additional authentication and of course increasing the 
> > > administrative workload).  Then the system wouldn't be fooled by 
> > > this technique.
> > >
> > > -Michael
> > >
> > > Michael Marziani
> > > IT Consultant
> > > Entercede Consulting, Inc.
> > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Gary Flynn [mailto:flynngn () jmu edu]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:58 PM
> > > > > To: Rob Shein
> > > > > Cc: 'Liran Chen'; focus-ids () securityfocus com
> > > > > Subject: Re: Cisco CTR
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob Shein wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think this largely relates to the earlier discussion
> > > > > about how there
> > > > > > is a difference between a "false positive" and an actual
> > > > > attack that
> > > > > > fails to succeed.  Ask yourself this: are you going 
> to want to 
> > > > > > know about all attacks or just those that have a chance of 
> > > > > > success?  If someone throws IIS attacks at your apache
> > > web server,
> > > > > > do
> > > > > you want to
> > > > > > know about it...or do you want to wait until they 
> start using 
> > > > > > apache-compatible exploits?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's a good summary of what CTR does here: 
> > > > > > http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/secursw/ps5054/
> > > > >
> > > > > Another thing to think about - some folks have a habit of
> > > patching
> > > > > the hole they came in through. Just because a 
> vulnerability scan 
> > > > > shows no vulnerability it does not mean an attack was
> > > unsuccessful.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gary Flynn
> > > > > Security Engineer - Technical Services
> > > > > James Madison University
> > > > >
> > > > > Please R.U.N.S.A.F.E. http://www.jmu.edu/computing/runsafe
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