Re: Trusted Unices Aren't?

[Jeremy Epstein <jepstein () tis com>]

At 06:39 PM 10/19/98 +0400, ark () eltex ru wrote:
> Jeremy Epstein <jepstein () tis com> said :
>
> > > Does that just mean that at least _some_ "hardened unix" vendors just
> > > allow generic "suid root" programs running in this environment, thus
> > completely trashing the whole MLS model?
> >
> > B1 and below do not require breaking up root.  B2 and above do.  It really
> > has nothing to do with the MLS model.  I believe that CMW+ *does* break up
> > root, but I'm not sure of that.  It may also be a configuration option.
>
> "breaking up root" in kernel is useless if you keep running utilities
> and daemons suid root..

Absolutely agree.  At B2, running something suid root would have to be
equivalent to running as suid "nobody".
 
> > > Does that mean that you need, say, VMS, if you need _real_ multilevel
> > > security?
> >
> > There are some trusted UNIX systems that are better than others.  If VMS
> > underwent the same degree of scrutiny and attack that UNIX does, I'm sure
> > we'd find an equivalent number of bugs.  It's a large complex system...
>
> I doubt so. It _did_ undergo numerous attacks for a long time; the reason
> is VMS was _designed_ as MLS system and it does not have legacy 
> "gimme-all-privileges" applications. It is not completely bug-free, no
> software is, but.. 

I've never heard that VMS was designed as MLS, and given the pain they went
through to get it evaluated, I doubt it was.  Having said that, it
certainly has fewer "gimme-all-privileges" applications (as you correctly
note), for two reasons: it was correctly designed to have granularity of
privileges and there are fewer applications altogether :-)

> P.S. what happened to Trusted Xenix, is it officially dead now? 

Don't know for sure, but I suspect we'd find a way to sell it to anyone who
wanted it.  We aren't actively marketing or developing it, though.
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