Re: Ungodly packet loss rates

[Michael Dillon <michael () memra com>]

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 jbash () velvet com wrote:

> I'm amazed at the attitude I'm getting from this list. You are,
> collectively, in the business of running a large network. I am a
> paying user of that network. The network is not delivering appropriate
> performance, as measured most importantly by the time I and others
> spend waiting around for characters to echo, Web pages to display, and
> whatnot. This time is long far more often than it's historically
> been, and far more often than a reasonable person might expect.

You've provided no proof that the fault is not yours or your provider's or
your employer's. The fact is that the vast majority of problems with
network performance are in the last 100 feet, either at your end or at the
destination end. It is counter-productive to blaim the people running the
network core for problems that they have not caused. It is also
counter-productive to paint everyone with the same brush when a problem
occurs.

Everybody, large and small, has problems with the network. The way to
solve those problems is NOT to grab a paintbrush and start slapping black
paint all over everyone you can see. The solution is to work your way step
by step to the source of the problem and get it fixed. Black paint only
obscures the problem.

> Although my immediate complaint is prompted by a specific incident,
> such incidents are so common as to constitute a continuing, pervasive
> pattern.

100% correct. It is a natural consequence of the huge size of the network.
This is a pattern seen in every other human endeavor.

> Because of the structure of the network, this pattern affects
> customers of all providers, not just the immediately responsible
> ones.

Just like contaminated Tylenol affected the lives of everyone. It's the
same pattern of distribution through many levels.

> Although many problems do exist at user sites, it's clear that
> many problems also exist within the network itself.

This is not so clear. While there are certainly *SOME* problems within the
network itself your statement implies that roughly half the problems are
there. I think the split is closer to 10% within the network and 90%
within the customer sites.

> So I complain, and suggest that you should look into reducing network
> growth to a level you can really manage, and setting standards of
> performance for yourselves and one another.

You have obviously not been reading any computer magazines lately. Every
one of them is *FULL* of Internet this and Internet that. Everyone with a
computer is being urged to get on the net and those without a computer are
urged to get one. This is something which nobody on this list has any
control over. We cannot turn the demand off.

> Do you refer me to some existing
> document, prepared either by my own ISP or by NANOG or some other
> group, describing the quality of service I'm to expect, and point out
> to me that what I'm asking for is more than it guarantees? No.

If you want to know what your ISP contract guarantees you, then please ask
them because we haven't got a clue what it says. 

> As far as I can tell, nobody's acknowledged that there's a problem.

You are talking to a group of people that deal with specific problems, not
with generalities. If there is a specific problem and it appears to be
within their control to fix it then the people on NANOG will track down
the cause of the problem and they will fix that specific problem. 

> You really seem to believe that the quality of service provided over
> the Internet as a whole, as opposed to within any particular
> provider's network, is acceptable.

But you appear to be upset over a more general issue that is out of the
control of network engineers. If you believe that the quality of service
is not acceptable, you need to talk to the managers who make the pricing
and deployment decisions at the major NSP's and ISP's. But be ready to pay
3 to 5 times as much as you are now to cover the costs. Most people feel
that the quality of service delivered now at current flat rate prices is
quite acceptable.


Michael Dillon                   -               ISP & Internet Consulting
Memra Software Inc.              -                  Fax: +1-604-546-3049
http://www.memra.com             -               E-mail: michael () memra com

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