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Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ?
From: "Dude VanWinkle" <dudevanwinkle () gmail com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 04:10:17 -0400
On 7/6/07, Brian Loe <knobdy () gmail com> wrote:
On 7/5/07, Dude VanWinkle <dudevanwinkle () gmail com> wrote: > Still there are more than a few discrepancies... some of these guys > went back to the British Side (if only to escape hanging). I dont > think snopes is nitpicking, but rather being historically accurate. It is nitpicking because it misses the point - they put their names on a document that could - if they failed - be their death warrant. These weren't stupid people and they weren't people with nothing to lose. THAT is the point.
No, the point is that you shouldn't base your life and patriotism on something that is just history written by the victors.
> It > is important that we not worship the past, but rather see it for what > it is: the glorification of a bunch of honkeys beating up everyone in > sight in order to steal from each other. WTF are you talking about? If you want to browbeat Adams' methods, do so, but in this case, for my money, the ends justified the means.
If the ends justified the means, how come all of George Washington's fighting resulted in establishing a Republic (http://tinyurl.com/2jsyzm) that, if he were alive today, would spend his entire life trying to overthrow from some militia enclave in montana? http://tinyurl.com/2jb5to
> (It was Brit-on-Brit violence > based on a 5% tax hike on Tea or some such, in order for Brit #2 <the > americans> to eventually charge a 7% sales tax on Tea, in addition to > 30% of a working mans income themselves> Taxing income was not on the minds of these 56 signers. In fact, I'm fairly sure they would consider that theft and overthrown such a government. We haven't done that because we're not cut of the same cloth. Just one more reason to hold these men in such high esteem!
Further, the level of taxes weren't at issue so much as their purpose. The colonies needed things that it depended on the King for - it wasn't getting them even though they continued to pay their taxes, and their ever increasing taxes. When the colonies complained the king did the opposite of what he should have done and penalized them some more. Seems to me that if the king hadn't been such an a-hole (or diseased and insane, as has been suggested) we might look a lot more like Canada or Australia. Just a guess, but there were plenty of reluctant patriots to support such ideas.
Right, but you now postulate that taking care of the populace is a bad idea, even when venerating the some idea when viewed through histories blemished and diseased eye..
> > -JP<who is very proud _not_ to have killed anyone for anything> I'm not sure why you would be proud of such a nothing. Does that mean you look down on those who did have to kill, either in self-defense or the defense of their country?
Err, to quoth the first commendable female sci-fi author: Fire Bad! If you kill someone, no matter whether you are right or wrong; their children will hate you forever, thereby extending the conflict for another generation. Violence should only be used as a last resort.
> P.s: Unless you fought in WWII, you werent "preserving" anything > except the flow of spice, as I cant recall america being seriously > threatened since then> Yep, you do. That's pretty sad. Your understanding of States and the wars they wage, and therefore the people that serve, is seriously flawed. I would suggest you visit your nearest VFW hall and buy beers for everyone in attendance in exchange for their stories (unfortunately these places are pretty "dead" these days, forgive the pun). You MIGHT come away with some understanding of what it means to serve.
Right, if my country survives by enslaving the proletariat of another, I should revel in that fact and support it. The spice must flow, and I should enjoy it..
Btw, Vietnam and Korea were both our attempts to defend the world from the evil of communism. Our allies in Korea were the Koreans themselves who were, are and probably always will be thankful. Just because you care not for any of these people a half world away doesn't mean they didn't care about their children and want to see them grow up and become successful. Those who didn't now live in the darkest spot on a satellite photograph and face constant starvation - while their benevolent leader sips expensive bourbon.
Right, even by questioning history, I am now a communist.. http://tinyurl.com/377gur way to go!
In Vietnam our allies were the French (buggered again, eh) and the Vietnamese themselves. In that case, too many people over here believed the same as you - that these people aren't important to us. We pulled out and many, many died. We never lost the war, we pulled out, under the pressure of cowards over here, period.
Ha ha ha, damn french.. Man you make a great american!
For me, whether you served in peacetime or in a war, for the U.S., one of its states or England, Israel, whomever - I solute you. I do not solute you for having killed anyone either - those are stories rarely told and for good reason - but, as one naval tribute says, for having made the trip. I hope you all had a good 4th and that, at some point while dodging flack from friendly firework fire, you patted yourself on the back for having contributed to the celebration at the highest level...though I know you didn't, and that's my point. Thank you.
Err, to quoth the first commendable female sci-fi author: Fire Bad! If you kill someone, no matter whether you are right or wrong; their children will hate you forever, thereby extending the conflict for another generation. Violence should only be used as a last resort. Man, thank you brian for showing the ability to think for yourself. I was about to give up and say "kill em all" but you saved me from that abyss.. Love Ja, -JP<the doucebag> _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
Current thread:
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the DeclarationofIndependence ?, (continued)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the DeclarationofIndependence ? Dude VanWinkle (Jul 09)
- RE: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the DeclarationofIndependence ? William Lefkovics (Jul 09)
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- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the DeclarationofIndependence ? Wayne J. Hauber (Jul 09)
- RE: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed theDeclarationofIndependence ? Stephen P. Villano (Jul 09)
- RE: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed theDeclarationofIndependence ? Wayne J. Hauber (Jul 09)
- RE: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the DeclarationofIndependence ? Gadi Evron (Jul 09)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Brian Loe (Jul 09)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Drsolly (Jul 09)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Gadi Evron (Jul 09)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Brian Loe (Jul 08)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Dude VanWinkle (Jul 08)
- Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ? Drsolly (Jul 08)