Re[2]: French ruling party having a riot on the Internet

[Pierre Vandevenne <pierre () datarescue com>]

Good Day,

Tuesday, November 8, 2005, 5:10:29 PM, you wrote:

DL> Maybe it's my own misconception, but citizenship in continental Europe
DL> seems tied more tightly to historical and ethnic identity than in 
DL> America.

Correct.

DL> I guess my question is, does this subtle association of ethnicity and
DL> citizenship actually exist?

To some extent, but maybe in unexpected ways. Belgium, for example, is
more at risk from Flemish/Walloon's disputes than from some Moslim
threat.

DL> If so, has that in part lead to the  ghetto-ization of those
DL> "different" from the historical culture?

It often does, given the facts that first generation immigrants are
often economically weak. It happened in Belgium with the first
generation of Italians in the 50s for example. The second and third
generation were more (very well) integrated.

Our current Walloon Culture Minister is called Fadila Laanan. Our
current Walloon Prime Minister is called Elio di Rupo. Our Minister of
Education is called Maria Arena. That should tell a lot about
integration in the land of Vandevennes and Dubois. ;-)

DL> It
DL> seems (and this is only based on my experience in the US and years of 
DL> reading the BBC and the Economist) that there is much better integration
DL> and assimilation of immigrants in America.  My guess is that since US 
DL> citizenship is based on an "idea" vs some historical identity, it is 
DL> more likely to accept outsiders as long as they are believers.  Can 
DL> someone who's lived in the US and on the continent comment?

I've lived in both places and agree. Europe lacks a uniting myth, a
common great idea. This being said, having lived for a while in South
Carolina and in California, I can say that while the "myth" is
present, its practical implementation varies a lot from coast to coast
and north to south in the US. Overall, I do agree that the myth is a
strong uniting factor in the US and that Europe lacks (badly needs?)
one.

DL> Your example of the Japanese internment is valid, but I wonder if in 
DL> this case the exception proves the rule.

It wasn't intended as an example of non integration, but rather as an
example of over-reaction based on wrong premises. If I had to take
examples of poor integrations I would have taken the Blacks in South
Carolina in the early 80s (when I stayed there) or the Mexicans in
California in the early 2000s.

But I totally agree that it will be harder to integrate a poorer
population, with a different philosophical outlook to boot. I just
deeply disagree with the "Jihad is beginning" shortcut.

The Newsweek article I quoted said

"Those who have gained a measure of success have moved out of the
suburban ghettoes, leaving the "losers" behind."

That's a perfect summary, imho.


-- 
Best regards,
 Pierre                            mailto:pierre () datarescue com

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