Re: Encrypted or Not Encrypted

["Douglas C. Duckworth" <stlpcsecurity () gmail com>]

Basha, Arif wrote:
> I think Rob is talking about the difference similar to the two following sites:
>
> http://wachovia.com/
>
> and
>
> https://onlineservices.wachovia.com/auth/AuthService?action=presentLogin&url=https%3a//onlineservices.wachovia.com/NASApp/NavApp/Titanium%3faction%3dreturnHome
>
> So if you enter the password on the first URL, is it secured on its way to the second URL, where the SSL handshake is 
> initiated from?
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Douglas C. Duckworth
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:36 PM
> To: Rob
> Cc: Eifrém Strinnholm Jonas; <amatachick () gmail com>; <security-basics () securityfocus com>
> Subject: Re: Encrypted or Not Encrypted
>
> If you connect with SSL, you perform the handshake first.  Thereafter 
> all data is encrypted.  You don't send your password first.  That would 
> make no sense since the data is viewable as plain text. 
>
> More information:
>
> http://www.schneier.com/paper-ssl.pdf
>
> Rob wrote:
>   
> > So how are the credentials protected in network transit to the secure 
> > site?  The way you explain it, I see the creds being exposed on their 
> > way to the secure site.
> >
> > Optimally they should enter their creds after ssl has setup the secure 
> > session, not after..
> >
> > What am I missing?
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 12, 2008, at 6:44 AM, Eifrém Strinnholm Jonas 
> > <Jonas.Eifrem () sweco se> wrote:
> >
> >     
> > > Encrypted.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: listbounce () securityfocus com 
> > > [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On
> > > Behalf Of amatachick () gmail com
> > > Sent: den 11 september 2008 20:25
> > > To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> > > Subject: Encrypted or Not Encrypted
> > >
> > > I've run into this issue a few times now and would like to know what 
> > > y'all
> > > think. Here is the situation: A website not using SSL has a login 
> > > page. As
> > > soon as credentials are entered on this page they are redirected to a 
> > > site
> > > using SSL. Here is a specific example of the code on one such site:
> > >
> > > <form name="loginpersonal" method="POST"
> > > action="https://secure.sitename.com/engine/login/login.asp"; 
> > > onSubmit="return
> > > checkLoginForm(this);">
> > >
> > >   <input type=hidden name=IsPostback value=1>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Now, from what I understand, the login credentials would still be
> > > unencrypted while traveling to the secure site. So that would negate the
> > > effect of having it redirect to a secure site in the first place. 
> > > Right? I
> > > keep brining up this fact but all I get back is that it's being 
> > > redirected
> > > so it's secure. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here so I'd 
> > > appreciate
> > > some feedback. Am I wrong? If I am I can handle that, I'd just like 
> > > to know.
> > > Thanks!
> > >       
>
>
>   
I believe it's not.  The handshake requires that the client initiate the 
SSL connection.

Here's an RFC for TLS:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2818

The agent acting as the HTTP client should also act as the TLS
client. It should initiate a connection to the server on the
appropriate port and then send the TLS ClientHello to begin the TLS
handshake. When the TLS handshake has finished. The client may then
initiate the first HTTP request. All HTTP data MUST be sent as TLS
"application data". Normal HTTP behavior, including retained
connections should be followed.

When you do HTTP first you are actually connecting over the wrong port 
and also sending HTTP data before the handshake.  You are doing the HTTP 
connection first.

So perhaps after sending the password over insecure HTTP, the client is 
directed to HTTPS where data between server and client are encapsulated, 
but the initial password was not. 

Therefore one cannot sniff the data between the client and server after 
the handshake, but the initial password should be available as the SSL 
handshake was not completed before sending HTTP data. 

More on TLS:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5246

The TLS Record Protocol is used for encapsulation of various higher-
level protocols. One such encapsulated protocol, the TLS Handshake
Protocol, allows the server and client to authenticate each other and
to negotiate an encryption algorithm and cryptographic keys before
the application protocol transmits or receives its first byte of
data.

So don't login unless it's https.

Doug