Re: Security procedure question

[Daniel DeLeo <danielsdeleo () comcast net>]

This has piqued my interest.  I have been touting the practice that  
you remember a sentence that has numbers in it, like "Get knocked  
down 7 times, get up 8." and then taking the first initial of each  
word, using digits for numbers, and keeping in the punctuation, so  
that you would get a password of: "Gkd7t,gu8."  (looks pretty random,  
right?)  This way users can still keep their bad habits like using  
their spouse's birthday, whatever, but they get a good password out  
of it:

My wife Helen's birthday is May 22, 1970.
        becomes
MwHbiM22,1970

I remember reading a paper where the author, a university professor,  
let 1/3 of his students (in some CS 101 course) pick their own  
passwords (with no instruction), told 1/3 to use randomly generated  
passwords, and told the remaining 1/3 to use the above procedure.  He  
then ran John the ripper against all of the passwords and also kept  
track of how many times the user had to call the help desk to get  
their passwords reset.  He found that the random passwords and the  
sentence-initial-letter passwords were equal in strength, and that  
users picking their own passwords and users using the sentence- 
initial-letter-passwords called the help desk the same amount of  
times, while the users with randomly generated passwords called the  
help desk much more often.  So this seems to validate the password- 
from-a-sentence idea, but...

What worries me about this approach is that there might be some way  
to make breaking the passwords faster using statistics about which  
letters are more likely to be the first letter in a word, or that  
some famous phrases from literature, TV, movies, etc. would be used  
so commonly that the attacker could pre-load strings generated from  
these famous phrases into his password dictionary.

Anyone know anything about this?

Daniel DeLeo

On Sep 25, 2006, at 6:17 PM, Ken Kousky wrote:

> One way to discourage users from writing down passwords is to stop the
> idiotic practice of expecting them to remember strong passwords - they
> can't! So if you're imposing a policy of strong passwords you must  
> assume
> they'll be written down. Strong passwords are a token.
>
> Strong passwords, by definition can't be remembered. They have to  
> change
> frequently and they're not to be used on multiple systems which  
> would expose
> them to the "weakest link" syndrome.
>
> Here's Kousky's Algorithm - we've been teaching it for five years  
> and it's
> still better than most simple alternatives.
>
> One option to help is to let them write them down - even tape them  
> to their
> machines, but leave a four digit pin missing from the string. It  
> can be
> after each capital letter in the string so what is written down is:
>
> Kw3$34Q3@AS
>
> But the real submitted password requires my four digit pin: 1234 be  
> inserted
> after each capital letter ... that is, after the K goes a 1, after  
> the Q
> goes the 2, etc.
>
> Real submitted string is
>
> K1w3$34Q23@A3S4
>
> If you don't get over the crazy idea of strong passwords you're  
> part of the
> problem. We need strong strings to submit over the wire or on a  
> laptop and
> that can best be served by multifactor solutions.
>
> We consider this one and a half factors. Strong factors are hard to
> duplicate and you know if they're missing.
>
> You might also check out our paper for '02 - "Strong Passwords are an
> Oxymoron"
>
> Regards
>
> KWK
> IP3 Inc.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce () securityfocus com  
> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On
> Behalf Of Mario A. Spinthiras
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:52 AM
> To: MandommGmail
> Cc: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: Security procedure question
>
> Even so if the method i mentioned previously on this thread is  
> applied ,
> even if the user is foolish enough to avoid or unable to understand  
> and
> apply the theory of a password then maybe they shouldn't be working
> anywhere near computers - but thankfully for the unbelievably  
> stupid my
> method works since it applies to the following criteria:
>
> 1. Who you are (Biometric authentication)
> 2. What you know (The password of the unintelligent ignorant user)
> 3. What you have (The usb stick with the key on it)
>
>
> To my opinion, any user not following a company's security policy  
> should
> be either arrested for possible industrial espionage and/or  
> sabotage of
> the company. The minimum impact should be his/her dismissal from the
> company as an employee.
>
> Regards,
> Mario A. Spinthiras
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MandommGmail wrote:
> >  I'm concerned about a user leaving the id and password on paper  
> > in or
> > near the laptop.
> >
> > There is no way one can defend against a user who decides to stick a
> > sticky pad on his laptop and leaves his password there. The best
> > encryption tool does not defend against human stupidity.
> >
> > Alex
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saqib Ali"  
> > <docbook.xml () gmail com>
> > To: "Brown, Sam" <sbrown () ashe ucla edu>; <mario () netway com cy>;
> > <lists () hwf cc>
> > Cc: <security-basics () securityfocus com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: Security procedure question
> >
> >
> > > If you don't mind, can I ask what product you selected? There are  
> > > some
> > > full/whole disc encryption implementations that support TPM. See the
> > > URL for description:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> FDE#Full_disk_encryption_and_Trusted_Platform_M
> odule
> > > If your laptops are TPM enabled the full disc encryption software  
> > > can
> > > wrap the decryption key with TPM, so the user won't have to remember
> > > or note down an extra username/password.
> > >
> > > On 9/20/06, Brown, Sam <sbrown () ashe ucla edu> wrote:
> > > > We're going to be deploying whole disk encryption to our laptops so
> > > > I am
> > > > interested in hearing how others have distributed the software
> > > > encryption ID's and passwords to users.  I'm concerned about a user
> > > > leaving the id and password on paper in or near the laptop.
> > > >
> > > > Sam Brown
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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> Excellence
> in Information Security. Our program offers unparalleled Infosec  
> management
> education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting  
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This list is sponsored by: Norwich University

EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The NSA has designated Norwich University a center of Academic Excellence 
in Information Security. Our program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. 
Using interactive e-Learning technology, you can earn this esteemed degree, 
without disrupting your career or home life.

http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
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