RE: Re: University Degree or CISSP

["Huang, John, GCM" <John.Huang () rbsgc com>]

A legitimate CISSP requires at a minimum of 4 years of industry
experience or 3 years if you have a Masters, therefore, a CISSP is more
desirable than a recent grad. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Radvanovsky [mailto:rsradvan () unixworks net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:51 PM
To: Ken Kousky; Huang, John, GCM; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Re: University Degree or CISSP

OK, time for my $0.02 worth of commentary.

Ladies, the outcome from all of this bickering is simple: you need both.

I have several degrees that are both business and computer related,
along with slightly over 2 dozen certifications.  Realistically, the
ONLY reason for having a certification is so you can: (1) either promote
yourself better within your company to acquire or move to a higher
paying position, or (2) move onward to another company, demonstrating
your knowledge and skillset.

This goes back to my original analogy of Dr. Suess's story of the
"Star-Bellied Sneeches".  The eventual outcome was that neither was
better than the other, and they needed each other to band together.
Simply having the CISSP certification does have some merit because of
its length in the industry and how some recruiters consider it
prestigious.  That may be.  However, I know people who, not only have
the CISSP, but other security-specific certifications, and couldn't
perform a risk assessment, penetration analysis, case study, or even a
simple audit without consulting the "Auditing for Dummies" book (there
isn't one that I'm aware of, but I am simply being demonstrative for
this case).

Consequently, I've known college students that got almost straight "A's"
throughout college.  And 'ya wanna know what they're doing today?
Unemployed.  Yup.  And the reason why?  They can't *apply* what they
know, because they never really studied, only memorized, the material.

It is a balance of having both items.  If you look closely at many job
requirements, it's something to the effect of cert plus degree, or
degree with experience, or cert with experience.  Simply having them
both is no guarantee that you'll get the job, and consequently, having
experience but no degree or cert won't get you the job, either.

A friend of mine pointed something out to me in very simple terms.
Recruiters are nothing more than order takers, very similar to those
order takers from fast food restaurants, such as McDonalds.  Most of
them have very little knowledge of the industry, knowing just enough of
the terms and buzzwords to be dangerous, but have practical knowledge in
how to read and comprehend people.  What they're good at doing is
filling slots for companies -- nothing more.  Companies give the orders
on what they want filled, and what are the requirements.  The recruiters
try and attempt to fill the slots as best as possible.  And any
recruiter that tries and tells me that there's more to this is crazy.
For example, we had ONE job position available here in Chicago recently.
The next day, 24 recruiters attempted to state "unique job opportunity",
all funneling into that ONE job position that had opened up.  Also,
these recruiters used the exact same job posting boards that you and I
use: Monster, AllJobs, USAJobs, HotJobs, etc.  So, how is that helping
you out?  They'd like to say that they have their own selective search
database and that their service is unique and comprehensive.
Rrrrrrr-ight.  Many of them *share* data between each other.  It goes
back to filling slots and them getting their commission checks --
nothing more.  In fact, most recruiters would rather that people move
from job to job to job more regularly, because they'd get a fatter,
bigger bonus.  I know several long-time colleagues from the IT industry
recruitment field (about 15 years now), and they occasionally come to me
with a job req., asking if I'd be interested.  It's always the same
thing, doing the same crap, day in, day out, and offers nothing more
than a lateral move for me.  BUT...what it does do is give me a little
bit more insightful information as to how their recruiting process
works.  Recruiters try and get people to sign up with them for their
*EXCLUSIVE* search database, almost stating that they'd GUARNTEE you a
job.  HINT: if you listen carefully, and have done this as long as I
have, you'll never actually hear them "guarantee" you a job.  To do that
would be misleading, and I'm pretty sure that it might even be on the
border of illegal, too.

Here's my advise of getting a job.  If you have ZERO experience, DO NOT
expect to get that $80K/year job -- you'll have to stand in line for
guys like me who'll want it.  Companies want EXPERIENCED people these
days, and folks who have intelligence, ambition and ideas are good, but
won't give or offer those lead positions.  Start small and work your way
up.  Sooner or later, you'll get noticed by someone and get that job
that you wanted.  Chances are, that job wasn't what you wanted, anyways.
And...many lead roles have some risk to them.  If you f*** up, you might
get fired -- as the chances are for those who work in the financial
sectors (banking, trading, funds, etc.) or the healthcare sector.

If you have SOME experience, and have an A.S. degree, finish getting you
B.S. degree, but settle for that job doing PC repair.  Build up some
experience some more, and learn people skills, communication skills, and
techniques, and polish them for when you graduate with the B.S.  Chances
are, you'll get a better job than you've realized after you've received
your B.S.

If you have ALOT of experience, get a few certs -- it can't hurt.
CompTIA is good one for starters.  Once taken, they're good -- FOR LIFE.
They're NOT senior or lead level certs, but they show that you have a
rudimentary understanding in whatever field of interest you want.  Their
SECURITY+ is OK, but combined with a NETWORK+ and an A+, shows that you
have basic knowledge in IT networking, hardware support, and know how to
spell and say "security".  Some certs to be wary of: CISSP.  It is aimed
for the "average manager" who know very little of security, and has been
thrown into the role of security.  It is VERY broad-based, and covers
mostly management concepts in security.  A comparable cert to the CISSP
that's gaining attention is the CISM from ISACA.  It focuses more on the
auditing and forensics aspects of security, which are the up-n-coming
areas of interest within the security industries.

Other certs that you'd want to pay more attention to, are more
specialized, and in most cases, much, much more technical.  Those would
be the Cisco CCNA (don't waste yer time with the CCNP, get the CCNA, but
be prepared for ALOT of studying about routers and the routing protocols
-- also their tests are brutal and require ALOT of practical over
memorization of concepts; Cisco WANTS to make sure that you KNOW
"networking"), the SANS GIAC (I liked their certs pertaining to
firewalls, IDS, general network security, and the one on policy
management), CIW (if you're a web designer, you should have this one),
CIFI (an IT forencs management cert, esp. if you're a police officer or
involved with law enforcement, this is a good one to have), CIPS (a new
certification pertaining to "Critical Infrastructure Protection",
offered by the Office of Infrastructure Preparedness, and deals with
emergency management, disaster recovery and planning, and homeland
security -- all very good if you work for a critical instructure
company), and perhaps the CISA (also by ISACA), which focuses entirely
on IT auditing.  Also, consider getting a few other specialty O/S certs:
IBM, HP, Sun, Red Hat, Microsoft, Novell -- all offer comprehensive
operating system certs for their O/S's.

In closing, a degree demonstrates that you "know where to look for
information", and a cert demonstrates that you "know how to look for
information".  Neither one, in my opinion, demonstrates the "what" or
"why" clearly.  That, to me, comes from experience.  So, if experience
is the third factor, you'll need 3 factors: a degree, 3-6 certifications
(have a vast richness in certs, say a CCNA, CISSP, maybe a CISA, a
NETWORK+, a LINUX+, and perhaps a forensics or CIPS cert), and 3-5 years
experience.

-rad

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Kousky [mailto:kkousky () ip3inc com]
To: "'Huang, John, GCM'" [mailto:John.Huang () rbsgc com],
security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Re: University Degree or CISSP


> This is the craziest conversation I ever heard of - there is NO 
> comparison between a REAL degree and CISSP. CISSP is great, valuable 
> and vital but it isn't in any way comparable.
>
> Simply put, if you don't have a degree - get one and get the best one 
> you can.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Huang, John, GCM [mailto:John.Huang () rbsgc com]
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:41 PM
> To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Re: University Degree or CISSP
>
> Degree or CISSP? It depends on where you are in life. A degree helps 
> you in the door and advancement into a management position usually 
> require a college degree. But if you're already in the field and don't

> have a college degree, a CISSP cert is easier to obtain in a shorter 
> amount of time, and provide more immediate benefit since you can put 
> the things you learn into use.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shyaam () gmail com [mailto:shyaam () gmail com]
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 10:25 PM
> To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: Re: University Degree or CISSP
>
> Yes,
> Very true. Nothing counts equivalent to experience, but experience 
> comes only when someone starts somewhere. I have seen one big thing 
> happening around. People in the industries shifted from technology to 
> business, that is the point when they lost the security and created 
> more loopholes in their own products as they reduced the time needed, 
> reduced budgets and spent more on advertisements and marketing.
> How does that reflect on people. They need people already with 
> experience. But how is that possible. Everybody needs to start 
> somewhere. So experience does count, but I would say some foundation, 
> some added qualification and some experience is good for a cool job. 
> For a startup job, some degree and some cert is essential.
>
> PS: This is my opinion, I am not pointing out any company or any 
> private organization.
>
> -S-
>
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> Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
> education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting
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> Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
> customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity 
> Planning,
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> ----- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The 
> Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
> education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting
experience.
> Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
> customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity 
> Planning,
>
> Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. 
>
> http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
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EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience.
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning,
Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations.

http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------