RE: OS XSS and SQL scanner

["Burke, Charles" <Charles_Burke () HomeDepot com>]

Dean,
This sounds like a good debate for an upcoming chapter meeting!

I have lead SDLC efforts for commercial software and retail software
companies.
You must perform code reviews and TMs when building commercial software
(apples)
But if my team is developing a specialty eBusiness application that must
be online ASAP to capture
Millions in sales (oranges)? I must trust my pen tester. 

I know that you get the most benefit from code reviews, TM, and process
change!
Question is when and where do you invest the $?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean H. Saxe [mailto:dean () fullfrontalnerdity com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:14 AM
To: Burke, Charles
Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com; arian.evans () anachronic com;
owasp-atlanta () lists owasp org
Subject: Re: OS XSS and SQL scanner


Charles,

I think we are comparing apples to apples.  I agree, poor quality  
people result in poor quality work no matter what the methodology.

I also understand the "typical security shop", we've spoken about  
this many times.  And I understand your specific needs, too.  I'd  
like to see a cost benefit analysis of all three methods along with  
appropriate changes to the SDLC so we can settle the debate once and  
for all.

-dhs

Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH
dean () fullfrontalnerdity com
"Free speech exercised both individually and through a free press, is  
a necessity in any country where people are themselves free."
     -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918


On Aug 2, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Burke, Charles wrote:

> Guys,
> Lets compare apples to apples!
>
> Both Web App Scanners and Code Review/Threat Modeling are ineffective 
> when performed by engineers with little knowledge of Web Application 
> Security AND the Software Development Methods/ Language.
>
> If you are working in a typical Security shop and you have an enormous

> workload then you have no choice!  Find the Easy Button, quickly
> review
> results,
> Remediate or Rubber Stamp! THEN move on to the next 20+ assessments
> waiting in your queue.
>
> If you have a project/application with the potential for significant 
> risk/damage then you make the call to Threat Model/Security Code
> Review!
> In some instances you may team with Architecture to sit in on  
> functional
> code reviews to inject security knowledge and assessment.
>
> FWIW
>
> Charles Burke
> Atlanta OWASP Chair
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean H. Saxe [mailto:dean () fullfrontalnerdity com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:15 AM
> To: webappsec () securityfocus com Security
> Cc: arian.evans () anachronic com
> Subject: Re: OS XSS and SQL scanner
>
>
> Here, here, Arian.
>
> Let's see the web app scanner folks go up against a manual pen test 
> and code review/threat model on a series of apps.  One caveat: the 
> results must be open for review, which means publishing the results in

> an open forum for all to see.
>
> FWIW, I'm a former customer of SPIDynamics.  I have experience web app

> scanners in an enterprise environment along with pen testing and code 
> reviews.  I have a good idea how things will shake out:  Web app 
> scanners are inexpensive to run but don't find significant numbers of 
> vulnerabilities.  Pen tests are a decent measure of security at a 
> reasonable cost when performed my talented testers.  Code review && 
> threat model finds the most vulnerabilities at the highest cost when 
> performed by talented reviewers.
>
> Will any web app scanner companies actually subject their scanners to 
> such a bake off?  If not, how can we trust the marketing material? Was

> Gary McGraw right in calling these tools "badnessometers"?
>
> I'm at BlackHat all week.  Email me and we'll get together and chat. 
> I'll be attending the WASC gathering at Shadow Bar tomorrow night.  I 
> hope to see some of you there.
>
> -dhs
>
> Dean H. Saxe, CISSP,  CEH
> dean () fullfrontalnerdity com
> "[T]he people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. 
> This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being 
> attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and 
> exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
>      --Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg
> Trials
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Arian J. Evans wrote:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mandeep Khera [mailto:mandeep () cenzic com]
> > >
> > > I am sorry to hear that you perceive some problems with our product.

> > > We take pride in being the most accurate product with least
> > > amount of
>
> > > false positives in the industry. This has been proven in many 
> > > bake-offs by customers and independent journalists.
> >
> > Hate to take this a little off topic, but do you have any facts that 
> > can support or back up these claims? Any data produced by anyone 
> > competent that speaks to your "false positives" and also your "false 
> > negatives"?
> >
> > I have failed to read a review yet to date that contains useful 
> > information. So far what I've read varies from useless data organized

> > around features like "reflective buttons" (e.g.-the Acunetix review 
> > posted to this list written by some woman who writes windows software
> > articles) to the other extreme of uninformed opinion and inability to

> > keep features between the products straight (secure enterprise 
> > computing review). This includes infosec magazine and online reviews,

> > bake-offs, and Gartner-style evals. Every one I have read so far is 
> > garbage.
> >
> > Not one covers actual tests run & and the how & why around them.
> >
> > This situation is no doubt due to the utter lack of skill and 
> > understanding of the subject on the part of the authors.
> >
> > However, I think all on this list would welcome information of a 
> > high-quality nature regarding scanner quality, if you have anything 
> > like that to point us at.
> >
> > -ae
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
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>
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