FC: More on Yahoo, seeking revenue, defaults to marketing-email-OK

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

[At least one commentator has complained about Yahoo's switch as an example 
of how privacy policies can't be trusted. If they can be changed at whim, 
the argument goes, what good are they? Well, let's think this through. A 
few points in reply: (a) If people really care about a privacy policy that 
NEVER EVER changes, they'll patronize only sites that pledge that. But only 
a few outliers seem to think that way; (b) If having an inflexible 
this-shalt-not-change privacy policy were a competitive advantage and would 
draw scads more signups, companies would have a huge incentive to offer it 
(they don't); (c) It is probably a good thing to have privacy policies that 
change based on current economic reality. Banner ads no longer pay the 
bills. If Yahoo could not attempt to recoup costs by changing its privacy 
policy to permit pseudospam, it may reasonably choose to pull the plug on a 
service with less potential to make money; (d) if you're that worried about 
spam, use anti-spam-ware or do some smart Procmailing; both have been 
around for years. (e) If you don't like Yahoo, leave. There are few 
stronger ways to show them what you think. Previous message: 
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03333.html --Declan]

---

From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavitt () hotmail com>
To: declan () well com, politech () politechbot com
Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:22:02 -0800

Declan,

The point here, is that this is both unethical and bad business - 
advertisers want access to people who have affirmatively opted-in to 
receiving promotions and given permission for their information to be 
exchanged (otherwise, the lists are poison, and produce massive volumes of 
complaints and hassles), and end users are quite rationally upset by a 180 
degree change in policy that was snuck in on the sly.

Every mailing list I'm a member of has had at least one posting about this 
change, and often a discussion associated with it, saying something to the 
effect of "Yahoo Turns Evil" (a literal quote) or the equivalent.

The logical consequence of a breach of trust of this sort is people 
shifting their lists, falsifying information, and turning options off when 
they might otherwise have turned them on.

Surely no one at Yahoo deliberately set out to create a flood of bad 
publicity of this sort - they must have just assumed they would get away 
with this, without the majority of users finding out about it. This should 
be an object lesson for other companies.

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt

---

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:07:46 -0800
From: Steven Kaye<box_nine () ix netcom com>
To: declan () well com
Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK
Sender: box_nine () ix netcom com

To be fair, Yahoo did e-mail an announcement to its members, on March 30th 
(at least, that's when mine arrived).

And they've got a decent Privacy Center (http://privacy.yahoo.com/us/), as 
opposed to just sticking a TrustE logo on their site or hiding relevant 
information in 6-point Micro-Boston.

Steven

---

From: "Ethan Ackerman" <eackerma () u washington edu>
To: <declan () well com>
Subject: RE: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:55:28 -0800

Greetings Declan,

I agree with the tackiness this shows on Yahoo's part, but would offer an
alternate suggestion to remedy it, only partially tongue in cheek.  People
should use their Yahoo Mail accounts on Yahoo groups, thereby transfering
the processor load, mail server load, and disk space load that this spam
consumes directly back to the spammer, (or, technically,  the "ISP" that
authorizes spam.)
It's not a perfect solution, and still requires a users attention and time
to delete, but there is something inherently satifying about shifting the
"market-external" costs of spam back onto the spammer.

-Ethan

Ethan Ackerman
Senior Research Associate,
Shidler Center for Law, Commerce & Technology
University of Washington School of Law
1100 NE Campus Parkway
Seattle, WA 98105
Tel:  206.440.0853/Fax: 206.616.3427
http://www.law.washington.edu/lct/

---

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:53:51 -0800
From: Brandon Long <blong () fiction net>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK

Just thought I'd point out that a) Yahoo is in the process of notifying
its users (you can't send 250+ million emails over night without using a
lot of computer resources and pissing off a lot of ISPs) and b) this has
nothing in particular to do with Yahoo Groups, the email address for the
spam is part of that preferences page.  Personally, I just left it as my
Yahoo Mail account, they can spam themselves for all I care, but my
Groups mail goes to different accounts.

Some articles on this:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/731517.asp?0si=-&cp1=1

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-871803.html

Here is the Yahoo Notification:

************************************************************
This is an administrative email from Yahoo!.

To view this message in Spanish please visit
        http://help.yahoo.com/help/e1/privacy/privacy-20.html
************************************************************

Your privacy is very important to us here at Yahoo!.  We
are sending you this email to let you know that we have
updated our Privacy Policy.  You can read our updated
Privacy Policy by visiting Yahoo!'s comprehensive Privacy
Center.

        http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/

Our commitment to privacy hasn't changed.  We believe that
you should understand what we do with your information and
what choices you have.  So why are we revising our Privacy
Policy?  To streamline it and make changes to address several
important topics.


In recent years, we have added a Children's Privacy Policy
and Privacy Information for users of Yahoo!'s financial
products and services, in accordance with requirements
of federal legislation. We at Yahoo! have become
increasingly aware of questions about how data is treated
when a user's safety may be at risk, when fraud or illegal
activities may be occurring, or when companies are combined.
We feel that the time is right to streamline our privacy
policies into a single, comprehensive policy and to address
these and other issues in the process.  Please take a moment
to visit our Privacy Center and read our updated Privacy
Policy.
        
        http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/

(Note: The Yahooligans! Privacy Policy, for our children's
web site, has not changed.  Although the format and some parts
of the Yahoo! Privacy Policy have been updated, our collection,
use, and treatment of information from kids under age 13
remains unchanged.)


Yahoo! recognizes that while we've grown and changed, things
in your life have probably also changed. You may have a new
job, a different email address, a new house, or different
interests.  We invite you to take this opportunity
to update your personal information

        http://edit.yahoo.com/config/eval_profile?

so you can continue to receive content and advertising that
is most relevant and interesting to you. Please do not
reply to this message.  If you have any questions about these
changes, please visit our Frequently Asked Questions page.
        

        http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/privacy/


Thank you,


The Yahoo! Team

************************************************************
This email was sent xxxxxxx () yahoo com for the Yahoo! ID xxxxxxx.
If you have questions or concerns, please do not reply
to this message.  Instead, please visit our FAQ page.

        http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/privacy/

You may receive more than one copy of this notification
if you maintain multiple accounts.
************************************************************

---

X-Originating-IP: [66.81.113.146]
From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavitt () hotmail com>
To: declan () well com
Subject: Yahoo Follow Up
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:42:18 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0

Declan,

I took a look at their privacy policy, and buried in it, is the following 
statement:

"New categories of marketing communications may be added to the Marketing 
Preferences page from time to time. Users who visit this page can opt out 
of receiving future marketing communications from these new categories or 
they can unsubscribe by following instructions contained in the messages 
they receive."

Note the words "opt-out" ... in other words, the way Yahoo has set things 
up, you need to constantly go back to this page and click "No" in order to 
avoid receiving marketing crap, even if you've already done it a dozen 
times before.

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt


---

From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavitt () hotmail com>
To: declan () well com
Subject: Huge Yahoo Privacy Badness - you address and phone for sale!!!
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:34:16 -0800

Declan,

I saw the posting below in a Yahoo Group I subscribe to, and when I 
actually followed the instructions, I found it was even worse than I 
expected... not only did Yahoo default my options for categories of email 
marketing to "Yes", but they also defaulted my options for Postal and Phone 
solicitation to "Yes"!!!

Message: 3
  Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:33:53 -0800
  From: [a friend]
  Subject: Yahoo Spam Alert

Yahoo has apparently made a sneaky change to everybody's "Marketing 
Preferences," changing all their "No's" to "Yes," the result of which will 
be a load of spam. To change it back:

Go to Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/) and sign in.  Go to My Groups 
and click on Account Info, verify your password if it asks you to, and your 
Yahoo ID card comes up. Click on 'Edit your Marketing Preferences' and 
change all those Yes's back to No's. Click Save Changes.

[Thanks to MattCook () excite com for telling me about his.]

***

Now, I certainly won't claim I've read Yahoo's privacy policy in detail, 
but I know for damn sure that I was never given the option to say "Yes" to 
Postal and Phone solicitations! In point of fact, I've specifically made an 
effort to keep my DMA opt-out current, as my postal box fills up rapidly 
enough as it is with charitable solicitations...

There is no way that Yahoo can legitimately say any of these messages are 
"opt-in"; in point of fact, the only time they've asked me, I've said "NO". 
This was reflected in the fact that they did have my "third party" email 
option set to "No". How they can translate that into, "Yes, I want you to 
spam me by email, postal service and telephone till the cows come home", I 
don't understand.

I run a lot of groups on Yahoo, and I'm constantly asked about Yahoo's 
privacy policies and membership agreements... up to now, I've said, "Yes, 
they're pretty lame, but the convenience is worth it." Now, I'm not so sure 
- email spam from a site like Yahoo is relatively easy to get rid of (worst 
case, you can always just change your email address), but once your address 
and phone number get out, you can't really change them.

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt




--
Thomas Leavitt -- thomasleavitt () hotmail com; ICQ #16455919




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