Re: Looking for help against Chinese Hacking Team

["Adriel T. Desautels" <ad_lists () netragard com>]

What I wrote was "properly designed Parameterized Stored Procedures"  
not Stored Procedures or Parameterized Stored Procedures. if you do  
not create your Parameterized Stored Procedures properly then you  
might be open to limited SQL Injection. If you do a really bad job  
then you might be open to serious SQL Injection.  I wouldn't call a  
Parameterized Stored Procedure that was vulnerable to SQL Injection a  
properly designed one, would you?

Therefore, you can not perform SQL Injection against a properly  
designed parameterized stored procedure.  The subject was indirectly  
"how to defend against SQL Injection", not how to defend against XSS,  
RFI, LFI, etc.

http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Avoiding_SQL_Injection#Parameterized_Stored_Procedures

On Dec 15, 2008, at 4:05 PM, ArcSighter Elite wrote:

Yes, stored procedures could be injected.
Don't try to deny that, even in standard products such as Oracle or
MSSQL there has been issues around this type of injection, and they will
continue to happen; so what you can expect from a custom app? If you
have some developing experience, then you may know that most database
architectures provides you with ways to do parameterized queries (here,
I'm talking about JDBC for Java, ADO, Linq for Microsoft, and Python's
DBC, in my experience). But: they don't prevent you into CONSTRUCTING a
parameterized query FROM a non-properly validated string; I'm wrong?
You're given developing tips to some guy that is supposedly to be
performing as penetration tester, and the guy is looking for a desperate
way to stop the attacks, now think: what it will take long? set up and
IDS or fix the web-app? I'm talking about a short-term solution here,
and I think this is what he asked for. If assuming the security isn't
very high, then It will have to consider also fixing XSS issues, remote
includes, weak acls, session hijacking, the list goes on. Do you think
it will solve his problem only by reimplementing. We're talking about
months here, if you have done some developing. Even with XPers, there
will be a lot of time until they have all the issues fixed. So, standing
from the pen-tester approach, again: set up preventive measures such as
IDS if you can't afford downtime, then LET THE DEVELOPERS fix the issues
he could find and report to them.





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> Adriel T. Desautels wrote:
> > "Even stored procedures could be injected if no proper validation is
> > done, you know"
> >
> > You can not perform SQL Injection against a web application that is
> > using properly designed  Parameterized Stored Procedures.  That means
> > that you would be using both Stored Procedures and a Parameterized
> > query. I don't think that I'm wrong, if I am then please prove it
> > because I don't know everything.
> >
> > OWASP is the Open Web Application Security Project and it offers
> > sufficient resources to build a secure web application. If one  
> > follows
> > the OWASP guide and reads the OWASP material then they will be able  
> > to
> > build a sufficiently secure web application.  Do you disagree?
> >
> > I do however agree that a Penetration Tester should not fix the
> > application, but the tester should be able to provide a clear and  
> > viable
> > method for remediation. We deliver a variety of security services  
> > to our
> > customers, one of those being Web Application Security Assessments.  
> > We
> > include viable and realistic methods for remediation in all of our
> > deliverables. Anyone that doesn't isn't doing their job.
> >
> >
> > On Dec 15, 2008, at 3:34 PM, ArcSighter Elite wrote:
> >
> > Adriel T. Desautels wrote:
> > > > > Hi there,
> > > > >   The real problem here is that you don't know what you are doing
> > > > > (yet). Let me pad that by saying that you're clearly not a  
> > > > > security
> > > > > expert and as such you shouldn't be expected to know how to  
> > > > > solve this
> > > > > problem.  The solution is simple though, especially if you're  
> > > > > dealing
> > > > > with SQL Injection.  Before I give you the solution for free  
> > > > > (which is
> > > > > posted all over the web) I'll ramble on a bit.
> > > > >
> > > > >   First, when you went through your "waves" of security experts,  
> > > > > what
> > > > > was your decision criteria? I'll admit that there are not very  
> > > > > many real
> > > > > "experts" out there and that there are a lot of fraudulent  
> > > > > ones.  A real
> > > > > expert would have provided you with a solution to your problem
> > > > > immediately while some of the others (on this list too) have no  
> > > > > clue
> > > > > what they are doing.  Unfortunately, most of your Certified  
> > > > > Ethical
> > > > > Hackers also don't have a clue (certifications are political and  
> > > > > not
> > > > > always a real representation of talent).
> > > > >
> > > > >   Why am I taking the time to write this? Well honestly I am  
> > > > > sick and
> > > > > tired of the bad name that these "Fake" security experts are  
> > > > > giving to
> > > > > real experts. They offer "penetration tests" that start a  
> > > > > $500.00, or
> > > > > Web Application Security Assessments that start at $700.00 when  
> > > > > it is
> > > > > IMPOSSIBLE to do either at those prices.
> > > > >
> > > > >   The fact of the matter is that your average and real "security
> > > > > expert" will have a man hour rate of about 190-350 an hour.  The  
> > > > > average
> > > > > "good" web application penetration test will take more than 10  
> > > > > hours to
> > > > > do. That does not include time to write reports, to do research,  
> > > > > to
> > > > > analyze unique issues,  or to do a lot of the other manually  
> > > > > intensive
> > > > > work that needs to be done to do the work properly.  Can that  
> > > > > all be
> > > > > done for $500.00? You do the math.... (the answer is no).  
> > > > > Generally
> > > > > speaking if you are asking for an application assessment you're  
> > > > > going to
> > > > > spend over $10,000.00. If you're not then you're getting ripped  
> > > > > off.
> > > > >
> > > > >   So anyway, the solution to your problem is as follows:
> > > > >
> > > > >   1-) Your problem appears to be that you suffer from  
> > > > > exploitable SQL
> > > > > Injection Vulnerabilities.
> > > > >   2-) Your solution is to implement Parameterized Stored  
> > > > > Procedures in
> > > > > conjunction with strong            input and data validation.
> > > > >
> > > > >   Check out http://www.owasp.org as a reference, or you can hire  
> > > > > my
> > > > > team to do a kick-ass job and get you locked down good and  
> > > > > tight. You
> > > > > most probably have may other risks that you are unaware of that  
> > > > > can be
> > > > > dealt with by the right team.  If you have any questions I'm a big
> > > > > proponent of free advice.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > From: harveyfrank <joet () ticadvisors com>
> > > > > > > Date: December 12, 2008 19:59:19 EST
> > > > > > > To: pen-test () securityfocus com
> > > > > > > Subject: Looking for help against Chinese Hacking Team
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We've been battling the Chinese for several months now and  
> > > > > > > have gone
> > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > several waves of US  security experts who have failed to stop  
> > > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > In their
> > > > > > > defense, we are not on an unlimited budget and they've gotten  
> > > > > > > us to a
> > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > where it looks as though somewhere among the site's 400  
> > > > > > > scripts is
> > > > > > > a SQL
> > > > > > > injection vulnerability.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Automated testing by a few pen test products seems to think  
> > > > > > > we're
> > > > > > > fine. We
> > > > > > > definitely are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it possible to hire a CEH to find the Chinese-discovered
> > > > > > > vulnerability
> > > > > > > for a few hundred dollars? (We aren't just being cheap, we've  
> > > > > > > blown
> > > > > > > our wad
> > > > > > > on security that hasn't worked.) Would someone with intimate
> > > > > > > knowledge of
> > > > > > > the latest wave of Chinese attacks be required for this job?
> > > > > > > Besides our
> > > > > > > first rate security team that's just been beat, I've tried the  
> > > > > > > $200
> > > > > > > pen test
> > > > > > > folks and they have all failed. Microsoft security help has also
> > > > > > > failed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Advice (Besides porting to Linux)? Help?
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > View this message in context:
> > > > > > > http://www.nabble.com/Looking-for-help-against-Chinese-Hacking-Team-tp20986210p20986210.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from the Penetration Testing mailing list archive at  
> > > > > > > Nabble.com.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This list is sponsored by: Cenzic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Security Trends Report from Cenzic
> > > > > > > Stay Ahead of the Hacker Curve!
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Adriel T. Desautels
> > > > > ad_lists () netragard com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > This list is sponsored by: Cenzic
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> > > > > Security Trends Report from Cenzic
> > > > > Stay Ahead of the Hacker Curve!
> > > > > Get the latest Q2 2008 Trends Report now
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> > > > > www.cenzic.com/landing/trends-report
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Alluding my previous message, he isn't a security expert, and maybe I
> > misunderstood about he wants to know HOW they're breaking in. Maybe I
> > was wrong. In the meantime, I totally agree with you that
> > non-knowledgeable security people are making bad fame to true  
> > experts.
> > But think about your post. Even stored procedures could be injected  
> > if
> > no proper validation is done, you know. Second, owasp will give him a
> > framework about pen-testing web applications, although is gives some
> > workarounds it's not designed to be some sort of secure coding guide.
> > Secondly, we got something wrong here. The pen-tester shouldn't fix  
> > the
> > application; developers must. And of course, input validation is the
> > issue, behind SQL injection, BoFs, remote includes; isn't new,  
> > don't you
> > think.
>
>
> Yes, stored procedures could be injected.
> Don't try to deny that, even in standard products such as Oracle or
> MSSQL there has been issues around this type of injection, and they  
> will
> continue to happen; so what you can expect from a custom app? If you
> have some developing experience, then you may know that most database
> architectures provides you with ways to do parameterized queries  
> (here,
> I'm talking about JDBC for Java, ADO, Linq for Microsoft, and Python's
> DBC, in my experience). But: they don't prevent you into  
> CONSTRUCTING a
> parameterized query FROM a non-properly validated string; I'm wrong?
> You're given developing tips to some guy that is supposedly to be
> performing as penetration tester, and the guy is looking for a  
> desperate
> way to stop the attacks, now think: what it will take long? set up and
> IDS or fix the web-app? I'm talking about a short-term solution here,
> and I think this is what he asked for. If assuming the security isn't
> very high, then It will have to consider also fixing XSS issues,  
> remote
> includes, weak acls, session hijacking, the list goes on. Do you think
> it will solve his problem only by reimplementing. We're talking about
> months here, if you have done some developing. Even with XPers, there
> will be a lot of time until they have all the issues fixed. So,  
> standing
> from the pen-tester approach, again: set up preventive measures such  
> as
> IDS if you can't afford downtime, then LET THE DEVELOPERS fix the  
> issues
> he could find and report to them.
>
>
>
>
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Adriel T. Desautels
ad_lists () netragard com




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