Penetration Testing mailing list archives
RE: What is being a pen tester really like?
From: "Omar A. Herrera" <omar.herrera () oissg org>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:47:13 +0100
Hi Diarmaid,
-----Original Message----- From: Diarmaid McManus [mailto:diarmaidmcmanus () gmail com] Apologies, I was under the impression from my quick read that Kluge meant "Its a pen test if you don't _attempt_ a penetration" rather than "Its a pen test if you _fail_ to penetrate". However, no penetration test should fail. You should always be able to get access if your client allows you to cover all areas, such as Physical testing, Social Engineering, etc.
I agree that any pentester, given enough resources, skills, attack vectors and time should be able to get in (same as with any attacker). The problem is that I doubt that there are many contracts with such a scope (all which I've seen at least include a restriction in time). I don't believe that saying that "no penetration should fail" provided only that "all areas are covered" (i.e. without caring about any other kind of restrictions) can be proved to be true in all cases. Besides, that would seem to imply that pentesters are experts in all areas (or that pentest companies have experts in all areas). Now, if we accept as a fact that pentest requires penetration or at least proof that you can penetrate (in any case), we also are getting ourselves into trouble. If: a) We are always able to get in, then what is the benefit then for companies to pay big bucks to perform these tests if everyone already knows the results? Only to satisfy themselves that this is true? Wouldn't they be better spending this money in reducing the risk rather than proving again what we are considering an axiom? b) We can't always get in or provide proof that we can get in, then we have called ourselves incompetent in front of the client, even if the assessment was found useful for the client as an indication that they were doing something in the right direction to increase security. I strongly believe that being able to get in does not always reflect the competence of the assessor (big mistakes by the client can make things extremely easy, even for the most inexperienced and unskilled of the pentesters). Likewise, not being able to get in shouldn't be a single good reason to consider a pentester as incompetent :-). There are many other ways (imperfect but still more accurate) to assess how competent an assessor was during a pentest (i.e. through measurable QA requirements). Cheers, Omar Herrera
On 08/08/06, Dotzero <dotzero () gmail com> wrote:On 8/8/06, Diarmaid McManus <diarmaidmcmanus () gmail com> wrote:Actually kluge, i think you'll find that that would be 'Its not nuclear weapons testing if there are no nuclear weapons', which, you will find, is actually not nuclear weapons testing. Penetration testing, by defenition, (and to keep many happy ill throw in IMO here) requires penetration of the systems you are testing, or at least proof that you _can_ penetrate them if you so wish. Yours, ~Diarmaid.I have to agree with Kluge. Penetration testing is testing the ability to penetrate. That is different than saying that penetration is a prerequisite for testing. You might have a very short report if you find no way of actually penetrating but you still performed the test. Dotzero
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like?, (continued)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? FocusHacks (Aug 01)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Mark Teicher (Aug 01)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Dogten (Aug 02)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Arian J. Evans (Aug 01)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Sol Invictus (Aug 02)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? William Woodhams (Aug 02)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? kluge (Aug 06)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Diarmaid McManus (Aug 08)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Dotzero (Aug 08)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Diarmaid McManus (Aug 09)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Omar A. Herrera (Aug 09)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Diarmaid McManus (Aug 09)
- Starting Out Lyndon Barry (Aug 09)
- Re: Starting Out John Skinner (Aug 10)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? kluge (Aug 06)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Christine Kronberg (Aug 09)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Richard Feist (Aug 02)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Tim (Aug 08)