Penetration Testing mailing list archives
Re: What is being a pen tester really like?
From: Tim <pand0ra.usa () gmail com>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:25:23 -0600
I know you are not trying to attack anyone but I do disagree with you on several points. Nessus is a vulnerability scanner and using it to conduct a test is called a vulnerability assessment. A vulnerability assessment is or can be a step in a penetration test to find weaknesses in the system. Here is one definition of penetration testing form a online dictionary: "A test of a network's vulnerabilities by having an authorized individual actually attempt to break into the network. The tester may undertake several methods, workarounds and "hacks" to gain entry, often initially getting through to one seemingly harmless section, and from there, attacking more sensitive areas of the network. Security experts recommend that an annual penetration test be undertaken as a supplement to a more frequent automated security scan." - http://computing-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Penetration+testing This is NOT something Nessus does, think metasploit (or insert your favorite exploit application). I do agree in that a web or application test is outside the scope of a NETWORK test but I am not sure why you differentiated that when it was not addressed prior to your most recent post. A pen test can be scoped to anything and it does come down to what the client wants. Hands down I believe that a pen tester is a highly technical position and I do agree that one does need "good verbal and written communication skills, the ability to work well with clients, and the ability to explain security (even inaccurately) in terms of business value." (I think that falls in the "Duh" book) Though here I disagree in that explaining security inaccurately is a very bad thing and can lead to bigger remediation mistakes (i.e. you better know what you are talking about). You are right in that many companies out there conduct a Nessus scan and call it a penetration test but that shows little skill and does not provide the client with something they could do themselves (any 12 year-old can run a scanner). There are MANY vulnerabilities out there that OTS scanners cannot find such as XSS or SQL injection problems. Most of the automated scanners might notice that something is wrong with an application but will not be able to go through a detailed analysis of the problem (and therefor providing an accurate assessment to the client). In my opinion, if someone is running a Nessus scan and calling it a pen test they are lying. There is a big difference between a vulnerability assessment and penetration test and many people do not understand that. On 8/8/06, Paul Melson <pmelson () gmail com> wrote:
-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: What is being a pen tester really like? > Also to add my 2c. > The people that Paul described are the ones we don't want around and they are not "pen-testers". I don't want this to get turned into a flamewar, and I realize that many of the people on this list feel as though my "candid dialogue" on the subject is attacking them because they work as pen testers. I'm not. But I do think it would be disingenuous to talk about being a pen tester without talking about the nature of the market. Based on my experience, it's not an issue of the individual performing the test's skill level. It's an issue of where their employer has positioned their services. If you want to be mad at somebody, be mad at the customers that don't want to (or can't) shell out the dollars necessary to pay for a very thorough assessment. > In more aggressive organizations, they don't make it thought the technical interview session for the > actual pen-test positions. In my experience, companies that hire pen-testers for internal purposes are the exception. From an HR perspective, it doesn't make sense to hire top dollar talent that will only be productive on a part-time basis. It makes more sense to purchase a scanning tool or outsource the work entirely, which is what most companies do. Or did you mean that the companies that perform pen-test work for multiple customers have tough hiring processes? I'd like to think you're right about that one, but there is certainly a dearth of evidence to suggest that it is not happening everywhere nor is it necessary. > A 12 year -old can run a scanner, it takes a little more to discover an unknown problem for a company > that has not released a product or a financial organization that is developing applications that are not > public. Probably not going to get an out of the box scanner that will find these. I agree with your statement 100%. However, web (or any) application assessment work is typically out of scope for most network pen-test services and comes with a higher price tag for the customer because of the time and skill necessary to perform those tests. I hate to be cynical about it, but even the big name security consulting companies out there use Nessus or Retina and charge thousands of dollars for each scan and pretty report. It's a matter of profitability. Trying to distinguish between genuinely skilled pen-testers and the script-kiddy scanners is like the old discussion about the meanings of the terms "hacker" and "cracker." Sorry folks, that horse has left the barn. They're all "hackers" and we're all just pen-testers to the rest of the IT industry at large. PaulM
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Current thread:
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like?, (continued)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Diarmaid McManus (Aug 09)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Omar A. Herrera (Aug 09)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Diarmaid McManus (Aug 09)
- Starting Out Lyndon Barry (Aug 09)
- Re: Starting Out John Skinner (Aug 10)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Christine Kronberg (Aug 09)
- RE: What is being a pen tester really like? Richard Feist (Aug 02)
- Re: What is being a pen tester really like? Tim (Aug 08)