RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest

["Erin Carroll" <amoeba () amoebazone com>]

Good point. The majority of companies will farm out the pen-testing to
external parties and from what I've seen costs range from $10-50k+ depending
on size of engagement.

To answer your original question, the driving force I've seen in most cases
is either they've a)been compromised in the past and want to check their new
security products/processes for effectiveness (paranoia/been burned before)
or b)are compelled to do so to meet legal or contractual requirements (PCI,
HIPAA etc... and the cost of non-compliance or not doing it is much higher
than dropping some cash on a pen-test).

I sometimes forget that my company is not the norm as it has dedicated
security staff with VA, audit, and pen-test background and can do the
pen-testing in-house... which allows for a much broader scope in terms of
if, and how far, we can penetrate during testing.

--
Erin Carroll
Moderator
SecurityFocus pen-test list
"Do Not Taunt Happy-Fun Ball" 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David M. Zendzian [mailto:dmz () dmzs com] 
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 10:23 PM
> To: Erin Carroll; pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
>
> A minor note to your correction :)
>
> You are correct, according to the SAP any who are required to 
> perform the full sap audit, level 1 or those who have been 
> escalated to level one by having been compromised, can 
> perform their own internal pen testing. But as this topic was 
> on what to pay for a pen test I assumed it was being done 
> externally. Plus from what I'm use to, many companies with 
> less than 20MM / year in revenue usually don't have enough 
> dedicated staff to have a true expert in pen tests and 
> getting extra budget for 10 or 20+k in tests....
>
> When I have asked in the course of performing pen tests for 
> pci audits either our contracts or visa has said go only to 
> the point of penetrating, do not actually penetrate.
>
> There can be a lot ascertained by thurough analysis of 
> investigation that can really assist it and security staff to 
> know what to watch and where needs better or other forms of 
> protection.
>
> Back to my question, for those able to get full authorization 
> to do a full pen test what usually motivates that level of commitment?
>
> David
> Qdsp
> qabp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Erin Carroll" <amoeba () amoebazone com>
> To: pen-test () securityfocus com
> Sent: 8/5/06 2:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
>
> I wanted to make a minor correction to David's post since I 
> am intimately familiar with PCI at my day job. :)
>
> The PCI standard does require a business obtain quarterly 
> vulnerability assessments from an external vendor. PCI also 
> requires an annual penetration test. The relevant PCI 
> sections are 11.2 and 11.3
>
> ----
> 11.2 - Run internal and external network vulnerability scans 
> at least quarterly and after any significant change in the 
> network (e.g. new system component installations, changes in 
> network topology, firewall rule modifications, product 
> upgrades). Note that external vulnerability scans must be 
> performed by a scan vendor qualified by the payment card industry
>
> 11.3 - Perform penetration testing on network infrastructure 
> and applications at least once a year and after any 
> significant infrastructure or application upgrade or 
> modification (e.g. operating system upgrade, sub-network 
> added to the environment, web server added to the environment)
> ---
>
> You'll notice the annual pen-test requirement in 11.3 doesn't 
> specify that an external "qualified" vendor need perform it 
> (it can be done in-house) and there is nothing specifying 
> that you "stop right at the edge of running the exploit" as 
> David states. By definition a pen-test requires compromising 
> or exploiting a vulnerability, otherwise it is a 
> vulnerability scan. However, nothing in 11.3 specifies that 
> the pen-test has to be run on all production systems or all 
> at once so that businesses can avoid downtime by creative 
> interpretation. I could pen-test and compromise a select 
> couple of webservers out of a production cluster to avoid 
> downtime to business and that would meet with the 11.3 requirement.
>
> What isn't explicitly defined in 11.2 and 11.3 are where you 
> will see businesses diverge in policy and procedures…what 
> qualifies to the business as *significant* changes in the 
> network? For some companies defining "firewall rule 
> modification" as significant would mean they would have to VA 
> and pen-test every damned week and I would buy stock in 
> several VA companies so fast you'd get whiplash. :)
>
> --
> Erin Carroll
> Moderator
> SecurityFocus pen-test list
> "Do Not Taunt Happy-Fun Ball" 
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David M. Zendzian [HYPERLINK HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com
> mailto:dmz () dmzs com HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com 
> mailto:dmz () dmzs com] 
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:54 AM
> > To: Curt Purdy
> > Cc: 'Intel96'; 'Michael Weber'; pen-test () securityfocus com
> > Subject: Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
> >
> > I've been following this thread and have noticed that no 
> one here is 
> > considering the liability of a "real" pen test.
> > Unless you are testing QA or Dev environments, anything you 
> find could 
> > not only prove that a compromise is real but also bring 
> that business 
> > offline, and since you don't know when or where or what you'll find 
> > the business would need to keep someone "on-call" during the entire 
> > engagement to restore or fail over.
> >
> > Plus if you look at some of the pen-test requirements 
> (standards(pci, 
> > ...), regulations(sox, hipaa, ...)) and look at what they call for 
> > when pen-testing.  PCI pen-tests are required yearly, 
> however the pen 
> > test must stop right at the edge of running the exploit, so 
> you never 
> > know if it actually runs. So here we have an industry standard 
> > "pen-test" (and don't forget that PCI also requires quarterly 
> > vulnerability
> > assessments) where the pen-test is specifically required to not 
> > penetrate.
> >
> > That tied with most business' not willing to perform social or 
> > physical testing, it is 90% network based these days; so 
> the majority 
> > of pen-tests are really only expanded vulnerability tests. But also 
> > remember that most companies only get pen-tests or 
> vulnerability tests 
> > because of these standards or regulations which then bind what they 
> > testers are able to do.
> >
> > What I would be interested in is hearing from those 10% of 
> pen testers 
> > who are able to do "real" pen tests, and what motivates 
> their clients 
> > if it is not a "requirement".
> >
> > David M. Zendzian
> > dmz
> >
> > Curt Purdy wrote:
> > > Intel96 wrote:
> > >   
> > > > You also need to determine how much manual testing may 
> have to be 
> > > > performed on the systems.  Such as cracking logins,
> > cracking cookies,
> > > > etc, or searching the systems for embedded passwords in 
> script or 
> > > > configurations files and looking at the database schemes.
> > > >     
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, most pentest companies don't do manual
> > testing.  Like
> > > the bank that I was ISO at hired NetBankAudit to "pentest" 
> > them.  They
> > > likely had a young tech running scripts on a dozen clients
> > that night
> > > and found one minor problem on our acquistion.  The next
> > Sunday night
> > > between 10pm and 6am, I manually tested and found six
> > serious problems.
> > > Curt Purdy CISSP, GSNA, GSEC, CNE, MCSE+I, CCDA Information
> > Security
> > > Officer Information Systems Security infosysec.net
> > > 443.846.4231
> > >
> > > -------------
> > >
> > > If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, you will
> > be hacked. 
> > > What's more, you deserve to be hacked. 
> > > -- former White House cybersecurity czar Richard Clarke
> > >  
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> testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an 
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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security?
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise,
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
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