RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest

["David M. Zendzian" <dmz () dmzs com>]

A minor note to your correction :)

You are correct, according to the SAP any who are required to perform the full sap audit, level 1 or those who have 
been escalated to level one by having been compromised, can perform their own internal pen testing. But as this topic 
was on what to pay for a pen test I assumed it was being done externally. Plus from what I'm use to, many companies 
with less than 20MM / year in revenue usually don't have enough dedicated staff to have a true expert in pen tests and 
getting extra budget for 10 or 20+k in tests....

When I have asked in the course of performing pen tests for pci audits either our contracts or visa has said go only to 
the point of penetrating, do not actually penetrate.

There can be a lot ascertained by thurough analysis of investigation that can really assist it and security staff to 
know what to watch and where needs better or other forms of protection.

Back to my question, for those able to get full authorization to do a full pen test what usually motivates that level 
of commitment?

David
Qdsp 
qabp

-----Original Message-----
From: "Erin Carroll" <amoeba () amoebazone com>
To: pen-test () securityfocus com
Sent: 8/5/06 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest

I wanted to make a minor correction to David's post since I am intimately
familiar with PCI at my day job. :)

The PCI standard does require a business obtain quarterly vulnerability
assessments from an external vendor. PCI also requires an annual penetration
test. The relevant PCI sections are 11.2 and 11.3

----
11.2 - Run internal and external network vulnerability scans at least
quarterly and after any significant change in the network (e.g. new system
component installations, changes in network topology, firewall rule
modifications, product upgrades). Note that external vulnerability scans
must be performed by a scan vendor qualified by the payment card industry

11.3 - Perform penetration testing on network infrastructure and
applications at least once a year and after any significant infrastructure
or application upgrade or modification (e.g. operating system upgrade,
sub-network added to the environment, web server added to the environment)
---

You'll notice the annual pen-test requirement in 11.3 doesn't specify that
an external "qualified" vendor need perform it (it can be done in-house) and
there is nothing specifying that you "stop right at the edge of running the
exploit" as David states. By definition a pen-test requires compromising or
exploiting a vulnerability, otherwise it is a vulnerability scan. However,
nothing in 11.3 specifies that the pen-test has to be run on all production
systems or all at once so that businesses can avoid downtime by creative
interpretation. I could pen-test and compromise a select couple of
webservers out of a production cluster to avoid downtime to business and
that would meet with the 11.3 requirement.

What isn't explicitly defined in 11.2 and 11.3 are where you will see
businesses diverge in policy and procedures…what qualifies to the business
as *significant* changes in the network? For some companies defining
"firewall rule modification" as significant would mean they would have to VA
and pen-test every damned week and I would buy stock in several VA companies
so fast you'd get whiplash. :)

--
Erin Carroll
Moderator
SecurityFocus pen-test list
"Do Not Taunt Happy-Fun Ball" 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David M. Zendzian [HYPERLINK HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com
mailto:dmz () dmzs com HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com mailto:dmz () dmzs com] 
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:54 AM
> To: Curt Purdy
> Cc: 'Intel96'; 'Michael Weber'; pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
>
> I've been following this thread and have noticed that no one 
> here is considering the liability of a "real" pen test. 
> Unless you are testing QA or Dev environments, anything you 
> find could not only prove that a compromise is real but also 
> bring that business offline, and since you don't know when or 
> where or what you'll find the business would need to keep 
> someone "on-call" during the entire engagement to restore or 
> fail over.
>
> Plus if you look at some of the pen-test requirements 
> (standards(pci, ...), regulations(sox, hipaa, ...)) and look 
> at what they call for when pen-testing.  PCI pen-tests are 
> required yearly, however the pen test must stop right at the 
> edge of running the exploit, so you never know if it actually 
> runs. So here we have an industry standard "pen-test" (and 
> don't forget that PCI also requires quarterly vulnerability 
> assessments) where the pen-test is specifically required to 
> not penetrate.
>
> That tied with most business' not willing to perform social 
> or physical testing, it is 90% network based these days; so 
> the majority of pen-tests are really only expanded 
> vulnerability tests. But also remember that most companies 
> only get pen-tests or vulnerability tests because of these 
> standards or regulations which then bind what they testers 
> are able to do.
>
> What I would be interested in is hearing from those 10% of 
> pen testers who are able to do "real" pen tests, and what 
> motivates their clients if it is not a "requirement".
>
> David M. Zendzian
> dmz
>
> Curt Purdy wrote:
> > Intel96 wrote:
> >   
> > > You also need to determine how much manual testing may have to be 
> > > performed on the systems.  Such as cracking logins, 
> cracking cookies, 
> > > etc, or searching the systems for embedded passwords in script or 
> > > configurations files and looking at the database schemes.
> > >     
> > <snip>
> >
> > Unfortunately, most pentest companies don't do manual 
> testing.  Like 
> > the bank that I was ISO at hired NetBankAudit to "pentest" 
> them.  They 
> > likely had a young tech running scripts on a dozen clients 
> that night 
> > and found one minor problem on our acquistion.  The next 
> Sunday night 
> > between 10pm and 6am, I manually tested and found six 
> serious problems.
> > Curt Purdy CISSP, GSNA, GSEC, CNE, MCSE+I, CCDA Information 
> Security 
> > Officer Information Systems Security infosysec.net
> > 443.846.4231
> >
> > -------------
> >
> > If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, you will 
> be hacked. 
> > What's more, you deserve to be hacked. 
> > -- former White House cybersecurity czar Richard Clarke
> >  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > This List Sponsored by: Cenzic
> >
> > Concerned about Web Application Security? 
> > Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the 
> > Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web 
> applications 
> > continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications 
> > from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions 
> to meet your 
> > application security penetration testing and vulnerability 
> management 
> > needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic 
> > ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic 
> Hailstorm). Download 
> > FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: 
> > HYPERLINK HYPERLINK http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php HYPERLINK
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
> > And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you 
> to confirm 
> > your results from other product. Contact us at 
> request () cenzic com for details.
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> >
> >   
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> This List Sponsored by: Cenzic
>
> Concerned about Web Application Security? 
> Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win 
> the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web 
> applications continue to rise, you need to proactively 
> protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most 
> comprehensive solutions to meet your application security 
> penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You 
> have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic 
> ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). 
> Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help 
> you: HYPERLINK HYPERLINK http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php HYPERLINK
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
> And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to 
> confirm your results from other product. Contact us at 
> request () cenzic com for details.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release 
> Date: 8/4/2006
>  

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006
 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006
 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security? 
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's 
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, 
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the 
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration 
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a 
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software 
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can 
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php 
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your 
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security?
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise,
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------