Re: An update on the AfriNIC situation

[Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org>]

Bryan,

Legal dispute discussions are prohibited by NANOG’s AUP. Please help us keep this stuff out of the NANOG stream

-mel via cell

> On Aug 27, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Bryan Fields <Bryan () bryanfields net> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
>
> People, can we at least quote properly?  I can't follow this at all.
>
> I wish ARIN would stay out of this, it's not something that affects the ARIN
> region, and nothing said in this statement seems to refute any of the
> allegations against AFRINIC.  What it does seem to do is state Lu Heng/Cloud
> Innovation is a shady guy.  While this may be true, I'd expect a RIR to treat
> everyone the same, and that's the core of the legal complaint here.  I'd
> expect that for a court to freeze assets of AFRINIC there must be a very
> strong argument.
>
>
> > On 8/27/21 2:23 PM, John Curran wrote:
> > On 27 Aug 2021, at 12:50 PM, Owen DeLong via NANOG
> > <nanog () nanog org<mailto:nanog () nanog org>> wrote:
> >
> > There are two sides to every story…
> >
> > On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 09:44, Lu Heng
> <<mailto:h.lu () anytimechinese com>h<mailto:jcurran () arin net>.lu () anytimechinese com<mailto:lu () 
> anytimechinese com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Dear John:
> >
> > The statements you made are very misleading.
> >
> > Here are some clarifications:
> >
> > Cloud Innovation is disputing AFRINIC’s claim that Cloud Innovation is in
> > breach of the agreement. Cloud Innovation maintains that we are a compliant
> > member.
> >
> > 1. While I make no comment regarding the justification of our resources. we
> > have rights just like any other registrant to keep our justification
> > material confidential. We would like to share some public data here: Cloud
> > innovation accounts for 80% of all AFRINIC whois updates in 2021 to date
> > and in AFRINIC whois,  over 10  million (roughly 10% of all AFRINIC space)
> > IP addresses whois information has not been updated in more than 10 years.
> > 40million (roughly 40%) IP addresses have not been updated in more than 5
> > years. Have all of them been required to provide re-justification while
> > they don’t bother to update whois? 313 out of 1800 members have not made a
> > single assignment in their allocations more than a year after receiving.
> > 641 member registered show less than 50% utilization, while AFRINIC’s CPM
> > 5.5.1.9 requires at least 50% utilization. All of those member are in
> > violation, including several major telecoms. However according to one press
> > we saw, AFRINIC only audited 15 member and terminated 5 of them,  Cloud
> > Innovation being the most compliant member in terms of whois update and
> > utilization data provided to AFRINIC as data shows above.
> >
> > Mr. Lu and/or Owen  - It is so nice to hear from you elaborate on your
> > extensive righteous behavior.  Perhaps you’ll indulge us a simple yes/no
> > question?
> >
> > AFRINIC’s RSA contains the following statement -
> >
> > (The Applicant Acknowledges…) that it is bestowed with an exclusive right
> > of use of those number resources within the ambit of the “need” which it
> > has justified in its application and for no other purpose during the
> > currency of the present agreement;
> >
> > Is Cloud Innovation’s use of the blocks in question within the remit and
> > purpose for which they were originally justified?
> >
> > 2. I did go to ARIN for resource, ARIN requested customer personal
> > information down to street names, personal address, all of which we do not
> > collect in our business from end users due to data privacy concerns. I have
> > mentioned in one of ARIN’s meeting and received a consistent answer that it
> > must be provided before the resources can be allocated. While I later
> > understood it is part of ARIN policy, I still believe that it is an unwise
> > policy which puts ARIN in possession of a large collection of personally
> > identifying information (PII). So abandoning our ARIN application for
> > resources after RIPE ran out, was a legitimate business decision and IMHO,
> > a morally correct one made in order to protect the privacy of our
> > customer’s. John's statement is misleading at best. John himself has
> > repeatedly stated that ARIN does not deny requests, but that applicant’s
> > often abandon requests when they are unwilling or unable to provide the
> > requested data. That’s exactly what happened here. Contrary to John’s
> > claim, that ARIN refused the application in question, the actual facts of
> > the matter are that Outside Heaven chose to abandon its request rather than
> > compromise the confidentiality of its customers and trust ARIN with such a
> > significant amount of customer PII.
> >
> > You made an application, provided inconsistent data, and then did not
> > respond when asked provide sufficient details to satisfy reasonable due
> > diligence.   After not hearing back after repeated requests, ARIN denied
> > the request.
> >
> > If you prefer to characterize it as “abandoning your application” then that
> > is fine.  It is consistent with everything I stated, including that ARIN
> > ultimately denied your request – and that such abandonment was in the face
> > of queries for additional information to clarify the inconsistencies in
> > your request.  We are generally able to get past these situations with the
> > vast majority of organizations with legitimate need for the address space
> > per ARIN policy, but I also acknowledge we cannot know how many of those
> > who did abandon were for non-qualification versus other reasons.
> >
> > 5. Unless ARIN admits it has been given the justification submitted to
> > AFRINIC by Cloud Innovation in past years, we don't think it is within
> > ARIN’s mandate to comment whether it is being used for the same purpose or
> > not.  John, please clarify, have you  received the justification material
> > we submitted to AFRINIC? Do you have any inside knowledge about it? We
> > would be very keen to know if AFRINIC has disclosed our private data to a
> > third party in this process in violation of the very agreement they
> > (unjustly) accuse us of breaching.
> >
> > I have no opinion regarding the justification submitted by Cloud
> > Innovation’s for number resources from AFRINIC, and have not seen it.
> >
> > I _have_ asked a simple question of whether Cloud Innovation’s usage is
> > within the remit and purpose for which they were originally justified, and
> > I observe that this question has been asked repeated by many others in the
> > AFRINIC community.
> >
> > This question does seem relevant to the dispute so please don’t be
> > surprised if you are asked it quite often until such is resolved...
> >
> > Again – Is Cloud Innovation’s use of the blocks in question within the
> > remit and purpose for which they were originally justified?
> >
> > 6. We find your discussion of the RIR stability fund most interesting…
> > Please correct us if we misunderstand, but our understanding is that the
> > fund requires the unanimous consent of all 5 RIR CEOs in order to be
> > utilized. As such, it appears you are attempting to mislead the community
> > by making a 20% promise as if it were a 100% assurance.
> >
> > My statement reads -
> >
> > If AFRINIC requests support in accordance with the Joint RIR Stability
> > Fund, ARIN will support such a request.  Furthermore, and without
> > reservation, ARIN stands by its unwavering commitment to support AFRINIC
> > and will take any and all measures necessary to ensure that neither the
> > African networking community, nor the global Internet number registry
> > system, is operationally impacted during this period. AFRINIC was formed
> > (and has accomplished so much) for the benefit of the African networking
> > community and ARIN stands with the community in dealing with those who seek
> > to disrupt or exploit it for their own benefit.
> >
> > It’s fairly self-explanatory and of course pertains simply to ARIN’s
> > support for AFRINIC during this period.  If you did not take that away from
> > your reading, hopefully that is now clear.
> >
> > For the above reasons, we think that Mr. Curran has not provided a balanced
> > or fully accurate representation of the facts to the ARIN community here
> > and we hope that the above clarification will help members of the community
> > come to a more fully informed opinion.
> >
> > A vigorous discourse is a wonderful thing - I actually welcome your
> > clarifications as noted above (e.g. you prefer to characterize your ARIN
> > request as “abandoned” rather than it having been denied)
> >
> > You apparently can clarify quite a bit when it suits you, but still fail to
> > respond to the most basic yes/no question - Is Cloud Innovation’s use of
> > the blocks in question within the remit and purpose for which they were
> > originally justified?
> >
> > Finally, while we realize that this is inappropriate for PPML, as it does
> > not really touch on any ARIN policy discussion, we believe that Mr.
> > Curran’s post could not be allowed to stand without rebuttal. Since he
> > chose to make such a non-policy post to PPML, we felt that our posting of
> > the rebuttal here was justified.
> >
> > Unless Mr. Curran or other ARIN staff member(s) choose to further engage on
> > this topic here, this will be our only post on the matter to this list. We
> > would also welcome the opportunity to take the discussion to a more
> > appropriate ARIN list if Mr. Curran prefers that alternative.
> >
> > Excellent point.   I have taken the liberty of replying to Owen’s post here
> > on nanog for clarity, but also suggest we continue this on arin-ppml so as
> > to spare the NANOG community.
> >
> > Best wishes, /John
> >
> > John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> - -- 
> Bryan Fields
>
> 727-409-1194 - Voice
> http://bryanfields.net
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEaESdNosUjpjcN/JhYTmgYVLGkUAFAmEpRgwACgkQYTmgYVLG
> kUAhLg/7B82+gbK4YjMwENBKIoL+53vB/H5DVo4WFHmDekadrsD8NkD39MxYARfZ
> vfe4uQqKCEx5Oo1Cefh9oY9G9mAhVC0244afbIqGU7RH06WSWFOA5Xj7//dUvTgH
> Tqd+A1ehGop/LpJlKJhFBOj5hMc9AgXNXPadeXAlx0LEsgp0Q1K7PFjCu+6+q9Ed
> LMT9Yu5FNDlsvEq/+ErnHcoRRdHx/cESPpswnt5neb4Sjg8mBldglA/1VwGx4LGu
> lzAWapp0Jbn9F5G/9SuI6UowCu08Gk+zaVmu31Z2fs3PRpa3KniOTnNDF7MHgT33
> CK/awTaiNIPOJaK0ktXtBQmlwEfR4tkWHi15SdwvEBDX3y3OEfIdKc5Cm9DhoJhW
> 6JTlNFWmplL2HZpdIWiEVCu++21xsMEpJKeMPcfpVsxPkxAHdbikSQ0zK+8pBTye
> pehHaYqnhDbX2jER//+sfJ1cezrsXg+dZ0deNvB7HjrdnWvdKitpzv09Ap24iwzq
> u0wdEsuVn6bQT8LcSbXAigssaTyCOp84G2JlRpZ85/iAsQXawpEAn1ACBHi0tbXS
> RQ8ddRiINnJ1kzP3xqxVIBvlfo1PzQjXNwoOn5fE5w/qyuI78IyKHkWad6AyEuyB
> kEZdDl3VDcCRe4wdt8CQOxgiJfG0AkyPBipfJFdSy08ujZwpUIU=
> =Ohbp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----