Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

["Justin Wilson (Lists)" <lists () mtin net>]

It is coming back to that, but you still have so much going on that you need the open ports.  I don’t gt why people 
fight IPV6 so much.  


Justin Wilson
j2sw () mtin net

—
https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109)
https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog

> On Sep 28, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net> wrote:
>
> Why stray away from how PC games were 20 years ago where there was a dedicated server and clients just spoke to 
> servers?
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
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> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
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> From: "Justin Wilson (Lists)" <lists () mtin net <mailto:lists () mtin net>>
> To: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog () nanog org <mailto:nanog () nanog org>>
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 7:22:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>
> There are many things going on with gaming that makes natted IPv4 an issue when it comes to consoles and gaming in 
> general.   When you break it down it makes sense.
>
> -You have voice chat
> -You are receiving data from servers about other people in the game
> -You are sending data to servers about yourself
> -If you are using certain features where you are “the host” then you are serving content from your gaming console.  
> This is not much different than a customer running a web server.  You can’t have more than one customer running a 
> port 80 web-server behind nat.
> -Streaming to services like Twitch or YouTube
>
> All of these take up standard, agreed upon ports. It’s really only prevalent on gaming consoles because they are 
> doing many functions.  Look at it another way.  You have a customer doing the following.
>
> -Making a VOIP call
> -Streaming a movie
> -Running a web server
> -Running bittorrent on a single port
> -Having a camera folks need to access from the outside world
>
> This is why platforms like Xbox developed things like Teredo.
>
> Justin Wilson
> j2sw () mtin net <mailto:j2sw () mtin net>
>
> —
> https://j2sw.com <https://j2sw.com/> - All things jsw (AS209109)
> https://blog.j2sw.com <https://blog.j2sw.com/> - Podcast and Blog
>
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Daniel Sterling <sterling.daniel () gmail com <mailto:sterling.daniel () gmail com>> 
> wrote:
>
> Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,
>
> At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm 
> seems to work rather well and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp makes this *worse*, 
> because when their algorithm probes to see what ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to 
> one box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT 
> doing upnp. If upnp is on and both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, things do work. But 
> when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.
>
> There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause 
> problems for any recent device / gaming system.
>
> It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's cuz they can't count on users having v6, so 
> they have to support v4, and it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support dual-stack. just a 
> guess there
>
> -- Dan
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net <mailto:nanog () ics-il net>> wrote:
> Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't 
> kept up in that realm.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>  <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> 
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>  <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> 
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>  <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattlists () rivervalleyinternet net <mailto:mattlists () rivervalleyinternet net>>
> To: "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl () mnwifi com <mailto:darin.steffl () mnwifi com>>
> Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog () nanog org <mailto:nanog () nanog org>>
> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>
> I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the 
> same PAT device, an apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. 
>
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl <darin.steffl () mnwifi com <mailto:darin.steffl () mnwifi com>> wrote:
>
> 
> This isn't rocket science.
>
> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will have open NAT to play their game and 
> host. 
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes <mattlists () rivervalleyinternet net <mailto:mattlists () 
> rivervalleyinternet net>> wrote:
> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it 
> comes to IPv4?  
>
> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming 
> consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
>
> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports or having systems that don’t work?